Pay equality will be hard to achieve while we continue to prioritise lifestyle

[CaramacFiend]

Had an interesting discussion with a colleague last night whilst out for drinks and she made some points I've never really considered.

She pointed out that the woman often takes on the carer role as 'it made more sense due to his salary being higher'. This is no doubt true because even without the pay bias towards men there's also the fact that the husband is often a few years older and hence further along in his career. Also that men are more likely to ask for pay rises and choose high paying jobs - even more so in working class demographics where men often learn trades and women become carers etc.

So of course it makes financial sense for a family to do this. But what if the man took some of the hit and the woman continued building her career? In the long run this might even be better as the man might bounce back more easily (women may still continue to face prejudice from some for the perceived risk of them becoming pregant again).

Of course there's the issue of men not being able to give birth but the fact that only 1% women utilise shared parental leave does suggest that there's plenty of room for men to be more involved. My colleague believes that a lot of us want to have our cake and eat it.

Another colleague chipped in to say that a lot of families can't afford to take the hit on the main salary, but the original colleague said "well, that's a lifestyle choice". She said that she deliberately waited a couple of years until her salary/experience had reached the level where she wasn't reliant on her husband's salary. Obv not an option for everyone but it was an interesting point. She said that it can be a mistake to build your life on the foundation of a rich partner.

She said that she understands why people prioritise things like nice houses/areas, private schooling, nice holidays, etc, but that in many cases these choices funnel you in a direction that isn't necessarily the path to achieving true equality. She said she told her husband early on that she wouldn't be sacrificing her career and she 100% claims she would've left him had he gone back on his promise to share the leave.

I'm not sure what my thoughts are not having kids myself but I thought it was an interesting discussion. Do we end up forgoing equality for a better lifestyle?

I know at least one big STEM firm where both fathers and mothers get 6 months fully paid post-birth.

I think this is changing at good firms. I'm at a company with a female CEO and have worked at 2 - 3 others.

At least half of senior staff are female. I think companies who actively try to gender balance roles help with this.

it would need to be paid, of course.
I work a lot with Swedes and I honestly do not know any young fathers who has not taken several months of paternity leave. You would be judged if you didn't.

@IBlinkThereforeIAm are you ok? I can't imagine going through everyday life with such angst to others with a difference of opinion.

Happy to be hear others thoughts and learn from others if you could drop the condescending tone. Jeez 🙄

Because it is use it or lose it am not shared, ie taken from the mothes right to a year. It does take 6 months at least for the body to repair, they say leave a year between trying for another for this reason. So if you let your partner have 6 months all of your leave is quiet recovery and the man gets the moving fun bit with no recovery required. Not very fair really.

If I recall correctly, Virgin do this. I may have the exact company confused with another, but a couple from my pregnancy classes in 2015 both got 6 months off on full pay. They worked for a large bank, which I believe was Virgin.

The gender PAYE gap can arguably be explained through 22 factors other than 'gender' alone. Which quite simply means that gender is a weird thing to zone in on, in my opinion as its almost to suggest another reason why women are apparently oppressed by men ... Which I also don't believe.

Women and men are more similar than different but them slight disparities can provide slight inclinations to why women would rather take a more caring role type job perhaps being a Nanny/Nurse and a man a more labouring or STEM job... I mean these slight differences are innate traits? And some women are more assertive than men and men are sometimes more agreeable.... But MAJORITY FINDINGS SUGGEST THE LATTER... So does the majority of evolutionary findings throughout history. I also find it weird that people suggest more women need to work STEM jobs when quite clearly the vast majority would rather not why are we trying to force their hands 😅 leave people be God damn it... I believe it to be mostly choice, choice of partner, choice to have kids earlier (for most), choice to advance your career OR not... But do as your please I have no judgement 🤷 I must say though it's different culturally and certain demographics play a huge role sometimes but in the UK I believe this to be the case.

I think the main problem is probably where people are situated and how it's governed... I had a son split with his father when he was 1 years old and he's now 6 and I'm on my 3rd year of a degree and work part time and ration my uni loan to get by... But again I'm in the UK and the government can help me in dire straits (not to say I've not got by scraping the barrel sometimes).

Its hard, sometimes I want to pull my hair out, but I'm sure I'll feel great in May when I hand my dissertation in 😅

Peace ✌️

Ps the man does not give birth but men face struggles in their own stride also, such as:

-Not being certain of paternity
-Housing and financial insecurity (typically with divorce proceedings involving children)
-seeking Mental Health

To mention a few...

I say embrace difference as we are different somewhat however small we still are. I think a lot of women need to stop comparing and crying low key oppression 😅

Your second friend sounds smart.

You’re staggered that the women that grew the baby, pushed the baby out/or had major surgery to have it airlifted out, who dealt with the hormone imbalance and recovery that came with that….believed that maternity leave was theirs?

Oh, and many of them are feeding said babies from the bodies too.

are you for real?

Your post reads like a matrix dystopia where babies grow in pods and the nasty ladies are just being mean and entitled.

damn right men should lobby for their own extended paternity leave.

the nordics who have proper ‘shared’ paternal leave have a fantastic 450 days so mum can recover AND dad can be with baby. Not the paltry offer here.

but seriously….staggered that the birthing parent doesn’t want to give up their recovery time 😂😂😂

I get this point but I also feel for the men grinding away in high pressure corporate roles while their partner goes on coffee mornings or feeds the ducks.

You’re as bad as your friend. Do you feel bad for the mums who are barely conscious as they stagger through the day while their partner goes for coffee with colleagues and stays a bit later to avoid bathtime? Or the mums with perfectly decent partners who have to go back to work 2 weeks after baby is born who are terrified at looking after that baby all day in their own when it hurts to move and they haven’t had any sleep and they don’t manage to get any food for themselves during the day that first long week but they do get baby to the appts they need to go to? Or do you only feel sorry for men, the majority of whom would not as women like you seem to think go oh I don’t need that high level job without a family to support so I’m going to relax and find me a 9-5 and smell the roses. Like fuck would they all do that.

If I recall correctly, Virgin do this. I may have the exact company confused with another, but a couple from my pregnancy classes in 2015 both got 6 months off on full pay. They worked for a large bank, which I believe was Virgin.

There are lots of businesses doing equal parental leave now! Not necessarily 6 months on full pay, but pretty generous entitlements for both sexes. Aviva, NatWest, Vodafone, John Lewis are ones I can think of off the top of my head but there are loads more.

My husband works for a law firm that recently introduced 12 weeks’ fully paid paternity leave. Too late for us, but still, I think it’s great.

Your friend doesn't understand being a mother.

I exclusively breastfed and literally never had a drop to spare. I went back after a year. Does your friend thinks breastfeeding is a lifestyle choice?

I support EQUALITY by supporting EQUAL parental leave. Adding leave, not splitting the current entitlement and taking away 50%.

Or is becoming the default parent because the man is back at work after 2 weeks mean women are making a lifestyle choice to become the default parent?

I do feel like these discussions are often inherently framed from the perspective of the professional female in many cases.

I mean, if you're happily working as a receptionist or hairdresser and not actively trying to climb the ladder the aspect of 'sacrificing career progression' surely becomes less of an issue. These are jobs you can return to and exactly the type of jobs I see many women in after raising kids.

If you're a receptionist the risk/reward calculation is going to look very different from that of a senior manager with board ambitions. A relatively low earner is surely much more likely to financially benefit from marrying a wealthy man.

But of course there is risk as with most situations that offer potential gain, like starting a business. Now of course men don't usually have to face that risk due to biology, but they're also extremely unlikely to ever be in the situation where they only work a couple of days a week and still experience a high standard of living on account of their partner's full time job.

It's extremely rare for a man to permanently give up full time work in his 30s whilst his wife continues full time for another three decades. This point seems to make some women angry but I feel it's hard to deny.

Tbf her point was more about equal pay than 'equality'.

My high powered big man job corporate husband was DELIGHTED that I was spending my mat leave on chilled coffee mornings and feeding the ducks with the little one. Especially after an arduous year of horrible mental health and pregnancy related illness. Because of all of the sacrifices and risks I single-handedly took to produce our family. Something he absolutely, biologically could not do.

A man who begrudges a woman of decent maternity leave is not deserving of your ‘feels’.

I as staggered by the aggression towards and apparent contempt that women seemed to hold for their male partners.

Clearly I wasn’t trying to suggest some kind of dystopian hellscape but you do you with the dramatics.

@CaramacFiend dont feel top sorry for those poor souls grinding away. They arent lobbying for time off, nor are they applying for unpaid leave or saving for paternity.

They also enjoy he grind of the corporate job to justify all day golfing/football /cycling sessions

Women drive 70-80% of consumer purchasing decisions and control about $20 trillion in annual spending globally.
Hardly pin money.
On a recent visit to Bletchley Park, Dp and I noted that women drove the effort to decrypt the enigma machine. It was also interesting to note that Europe has a low fertility rate, which is likely due to economic affluence and the political climate surrounding families.
Mumsnet is not always a reliable source of factual information, neither is feminist rhetoric.

In my personal opinion, there will always be a conflict of interest between pursuing a career and maintaining a strong family unit. Additionally, the hierarchical nature of our society means that most individuals will never be high earners or be adequately recognized for their contributions. My partner and I agree that work should be viewed as a means to an end, a way to provide for our family and enable us to live a fulfilling life.

I do feel there are quite a few situations where the man would be considered a cocklodger if the roles were reversed though.

Which maybe speaks more for societal views of men's 'duty' than for anything else.

Women drive 70-80% of consumer purchasing decisions

But isn't the other half of this quote that men earn the majority of the money they spend?

My partner and I agree that work should be viewed as a means to an end, a way to provide for our family and enable us to live a fulfilling life.

I agree with this. I've never really seen my job as something that defines me. I'm happy on £46k and minimal stress tbh.

Breastfeeding is a lifestyle choice though?

Women contribute 37% of global GDP. In dual-income households, 62% of men earn more. Yet women account for 80% of consumer spending. Would women be as generous if the roles were reversed??😂

I don’t know if the op is anti women or just enjoying trolling mumsnet. Never ever in years of being on mumsnet have I seen a man who does all the childcare and half/most/all of the housework called a cocklodger, because they are blatantly not. Sometimes women at home with children do get a break. There is something wrong with you if you resent that. Everything you say is really ‘women are lazy and a bit shit’ and designed to provoke a reaction, so I’m out.