Pay equality will be hard to achieve while we continue to prioritise lifestyle

[CaramacFiend]

Had an interesting discussion with a colleague last night whilst out for drinks and she made some points I've never really considered.

She pointed out that the woman often takes on the carer role as 'it made more sense due to his salary being higher'. This is no doubt true because even without the pay bias towards men there's also the fact that the husband is often a few years older and hence further along in his career. Also that men are more likely to ask for pay rises and choose high paying jobs - even more so in working class demographics where men often learn trades and women become carers etc.

So of course it makes financial sense for a family to do this. But what if the man took some of the hit and the woman continued building her career? In the long run this might even be better as the man might bounce back more easily (women may still continue to face prejudice from some for the perceived risk of them becoming pregant again).

Of course there's the issue of men not being able to give birth but the fact that only 1% women utilise shared parental leave does suggest that there's plenty of room for men to be more involved. My colleague believes that a lot of us want to have our cake and eat it.

Another colleague chipped in to say that a lot of families can't afford to take the hit on the main salary, but the original colleague said "well, that's a lifestyle choice". She said that she deliberately waited a couple of years until her salary/experience had reached the level where she wasn't reliant on her husband's salary. Obv not an option for everyone but it was an interesting point. She said that it can be a mistake to build your life on the foundation of a rich partner.

She said that she understands why people prioritise things like nice houses/areas, private schooling, nice holidays, etc, but that in many cases these choices funnel you in a direction that isn't necessarily the path to achieving true equality. She said she told her husband early on that she wouldn't be sacrificing her career and she 100% claims she would've left him had he gone back on his promise to share the leave.

I'm not sure what my thoughts are not having kids myself but I thought it was an interesting discussion. Do we end up forgoing equality for a better lifestyle?

Quite. I reserve my judgement for the vast number of men who refuse to actively father their children.

Goodness what awful women wanting to be mother to their own children.

So presumably you expect fathers to be present at all times otherwise they aren't "being father to their own children", right?

What I think is sad now is how it is almost impossible to live on one wage so women are forced to go back to work even if they don't want to. To me having that choice taken away from a woman is even worse than anything that happens in the work place.

Why is the choice being taken away only from women? You don't think fathers might also like to spend time with their children? Or is their only purpose to provide money?

There was a thread on here a few days ago with an OP with this attitude, complaining how unfair it was that her husband wanted to cut his hours to part time and spend more time with his children. Presumably you wouldn't think it ok if men expected and assumed women to work full time and pay for everything for the whole family so they could be at home with the children all the time, so why is this presumption ok the other way around? Why should it be based on only what the woman wants to do?

I'm glad your friend thinks she's on the path to the perfect life and true equality OP, but she sounds like an eternal bore. It would have been interesting to see how all her plans worked out though if she had left him.

Presumably it would work out a hell of a lot better for her children and her than it would if she had been a financial dependent of her husband. My children would be living in poverty now if I'd done that rather than ensured I was able to provide for them myself. You are doing neither women or children any favours with these prejudices and stereotypes.

I actually encounter way more racial diversity than I did in office work. The majority of guys working on the concrete seem to be Asian. Also thought they were well represented in pharma?

Yes there was no way I was giving up ML in favour of the dad. I could not have focused or taken an interest in work issues, I was too besotted with my baby. I’m sure I can’t have been the only one.

As I said in my post, there is good evidence that on average you do see a difference in psychological traits between men and women. But they are overlapping bell curves so clearly there are plenty of men who like nurturing and women who don’t. I just think at population level you do see those average differences playing out. Clearly it is possible to argue that it is all socialisation but my thinking is that it is such a consistent finding that there must be an innate element.

How did your child’s father feel about the baby? Was he not also besotted?

I took 6 months leave and my DH took the rest. Was it great going back to work at 6 months? Nope, I’d rather have been off work to be honest. Was it great for my DH and DC? Absolutely yes. It also gave my DH a valuable insight into parenting, and it was bloody lovely to swan off to work and come back to a house where most of the chores had been done.

Honestly I think it's about everyone having a choice. I was always so career orientated with a very successful career that could progress and progress. Once we decided to have a family, the importance of my career paled in comparison. I wanted nothing more than to be with my children. I always work so hard at everything I do and I wanted to give being a parent my all. I was very fortunate and I still do my senior role part time and flexible 2 days per week.

Yes my career has stalled, but I've never been more fulfilled. And honestly I couldn't stand the thought of full time work indefinitely. I love the balance I have as a part time working parent.

I think this argument sometimes misses out on the natural urge to care for children. For me, I went with what I felt was natural for me to do rather than proving a point or otherwise.

I feel everyone should get to chose what works best for them and their family.

By definition, that was a lifestyle choice. All choices have consequences. For some that might mean lower pay etc.

"I think this argument sometimes misses out on the natural urge to care for children."

Women don't all feel the same. We don't have one personality - otherwise we'd all be in the same job, with the same traits etc.

No, he’s now my ex (has been a long time). He was good on a practical level (no problem changing a nappy, bottle feeding etc) but lacks warmth. (He also already had children from a previous marriage). The thing is not everyone has a ‘career’ sometimes it’s just a job. He earned a tonne load money than me in a high flying job, he wouldn’t have been at all interested in being at home all day.

"The thing is not everyone has a ‘career’ sometimes it’s just a job."

So those women were less ambitious even before children. It's not surprising they'd be less ambitious than other women after. It's a personality trait.

@BMrs but I'm assuming your career role is paid say around 30 to 40k for those 2 days which is still higher than the average wage or indeed higher than the average household income.

And what tosh to say people who get paid more are more ambitious! Not teachers and nurses then, just highly qualified with loads of knowledge that they apply day in day out. Who probably get paid less than the above poster even when senior. More like really ambitious people lack empathy / don't care about society. Seems to be a prerequisite for any role over 100k tbh.

@Creepy2023 of course we don't all share the same urges and personalities. But biologically our female make up and how our brain works is different to men and we lean towards a more caring and nurturing nature than men. Isn't the same for everyone, no one size fits all. There was time I wasn't sure I even wanted children but that obviously changed as I got older.

No, it isn’t good. It’s actually terrible.

It shows that in the absence of males, girls take stem subjects, but in non segregated schools these are predominantly male dominated classrooms.

Most all girls schools are either in affluent areas or private.

So, in other words, poorer girls are less likely to be able to access stem based subjects than more wealthy girls.

@Boomboom22 I didn't mention ambition. Are you confusing me with another poster or was that aimed at someone else?

1st part you, 2nd part to creepy

Yep. You are also no longer a mother when your children are at school.

I said women who view work as "just a job" - not a career - are less ambitious.

You deliberately or otherwise misread what I actually wrote.

No-one mentioned nurses or teachers - both career roles.

OK fair enough.
And some people's minds def change on doing it either way. By 9 months I was past ready to go back pt. Others plan to go back but then can't bear the idea.

@BMrs but I'm assuming your career role is paid say around 30 to 40k for those 2 days which is still higher than the average wage or indeed higher than the average household income.

The average UK full time salary is £38k.

www.forbes.com/uk/advisor/business/average-uk-salary-by-age/

And that's before benefits, child benefit, etc. and with only one worker when most households have two.

It's clear somebody neglected to study science.

How ironic.

How many women do you meet in the real world, and on here, who have no intention of giving up part of their maternity leave to their DH because the feel entitled to it or the hormones take over.

I’m part of a woman’s network that has tried to establish why the shared leave policy to take up has been lower than 1% (huge org that’s also just had a big pandemic baby boom so it’s not that there are fewer women on mat leave - if anything it’s been higher than pre-2020). Consensus from the women asked was that the leave is for women, hell would freeze over before their partners got to reduce their time with baby and if men want their own leave behind the 2 weeks they already get, then they need to lobby for it rather than steal from mums.

No, I’m not exaggerating. I was pretty staggered.

I don’t know if that mentality can really be changed. Yes, you could give men their own use it or lose it leave but if the household is reliant on dad’s salary then I can see many just not using it, especially given how many women apparently view men as surplus to requirements.

I'm sure there's truth in what she says but there are plenty of women like me who really want to focus on the kids as opposed to their career (and yes I know that millions of women focus on both and that's great). In my case I ended up having children late, for reasons out of my control. I had cancer when they were both tiny and I just felt that life was short, I didn't know if the cancer would come back and I just wanted to be with my children.
It was nothing to do with DH not pulling his weight, or the patriarchy or anything. It's just that the desire to be with the children was stronger than me striving for equality in my relationship. And what do we mean by equality anyway? There's more to life than financial and career success? Why isn't life of SAHM seen as being as worthwhile as someone who earns well and has a great job? My DH has always seen me as an equal in the relationship and my contribution to family life is equal to his, just different.
I am working now by the way but I took seven years off living the life I wanted. DH was happy to support me whether I wanted to be a SAHM or return to work full time.

We were talking in this instance about the gender pay gap, as in women are over represented in the bottom 25 percentile of pay and under represented in the top. It’s the lack of diversity in leadership that’s the issue. There is much diversity in the lower paid jobs, but little in the higher paid roles. There are more directors called Chris than there are women and non-white people combined!!

We were talking in this instance about the gender pay gap, as in women are over represented in the bottom 25 percentile of pay and under represented in the top. It’s the lack of diversity in leadership that’s the issue. There is much diversity in the lower paid jobs, but little in the higher paid roles

Yes, despite data demonstrating that companies with an equal split of Board members of each sex are better managed, more profitable and more stable.