Pay equality will be hard to achieve while we continue to prioritise lifestyle

[CaramacFiend]

Had an interesting discussion with a colleague last night whilst out for drinks and she made some points I've never really considered.

She pointed out that the woman often takes on the carer role as 'it made more sense due to his salary being higher'. This is no doubt true because even without the pay bias towards men there's also the fact that the husband is often a few years older and hence further along in his career. Also that men are more likely to ask for pay rises and choose high paying jobs - even more so in working class demographics where men often learn trades and women become carers etc.

So of course it makes financial sense for a family to do this. But what if the man took some of the hit and the woman continued building her career? In the long run this might even be better as the man might bounce back more easily (women may still continue to face prejudice from some for the perceived risk of them becoming pregant again).

Of course there's the issue of men not being able to give birth but the fact that only 1% women utilise shared parental leave does suggest that there's plenty of room for men to be more involved. My colleague believes that a lot of us want to have our cake and eat it.

Another colleague chipped in to say that a lot of families can't afford to take the hit on the main salary, but the original colleague said "well, that's a lifestyle choice". She said that she deliberately waited a couple of years until her salary/experience had reached the level where she wasn't reliant on her husband's salary. Obv not an option for everyone but it was an interesting point. She said that it can be a mistake to build your life on the foundation of a rich partner.

She said that she understands why people prioritise things like nice houses/areas, private schooling, nice holidays, etc, but that in many cases these choices funnel you in a direction that isn't necessarily the path to achieving true equality. She said she told her husband early on that she wouldn't be sacrificing her career and she 100% claims she would've left him had he gone back on his promise to share the leave.

I'm not sure what my thoughts are not having kids myself but I thought it was an interesting discussion. Do we end up forgoing equality for a better lifestyle?

Well, yes, saying that testosterone affects behaviour is about the most succinct way you can put it. There's plenty of detailed studies showing that propensity for violence/criminal behaviour rises as testosterone increases within the physiological range, that it influences risk taking (likely why CEOs tend to have higher than average levels), and that increasing testosterone influences the brain's fight or flight response.

There's loads of data and it's been discussed to death on here. I'll happily post the studies from the last thread tomorrow when I've not got to be up in five hours.

The natural level of testosterone cisgender women produce can vary a lot. It's not a blanket thing. See PCOS etc.

So, at some point we totally diverged from our primate ancestors and completely stopped exhibiting sex based differences? Not buying that I'm afraid.

I think social influences just suppress a lot of our natural behaviour. Remove social inhibitions and humans act very differently.

It's still on average 10-14x less than most males.

"The fact is women do the vast majority of the childcare and housework because if they didn’t the men wouldn’t and the children would suffer."

This.

I am currently in a fairly large project team for a 5 year project. We have had 5 members go on leave when they became parents and their place on the project has suffered as they missed so much and are still playing catch up. One has had two dc in quick succession and two leaves during the project, one has gone part 4/5 week, another 2 keep to their working hours now they have young dc.

They are all dads. The women on the project are miles ahead, while the new dads are taking on the more basic aspects to allow the now more experienced women to achieve for the project.

Our company offers 6 months fully paid paternity leave.

To get more equality, and give women the choice to prioritise their careers dads taking longer paternity leave, working part time or to their hours to drop/pick the dc up from nursery needs to be normalised. Women need to ignore those inner feelings that others would judge them (most people dont!) and there is nothing wrong with applauding a new dad who breaks the stereotype, it would be denying the harmful stereotype exists.

Whatever happens kids will still need their parents and either one or both parents careers will probably suffer when raising their kids and that should be discussed and choices agreed, but it shouldn't be the womens by default.

Me and DH split everything. There is absolutely no assumption I am to do more parenting or housework because I’m a mum.

It’s all down to who you marry and what you are prepared to tolerate. If you want equality, marry someone who treats you like an equal.

Only if you have children with someone sexist and / or incompetent.

Exactly, @Creepy2023

Women need to be FAR more discriminating in their choice of co-parents. FAR more.

I will finish reading the thread later. Your friend sounds like a great advert for ‘tell me you don’t know any poor people without telling me you don’t know any poor people’ wiht her luxury beliefs and her you should just wait till later to have babies when you are earning lots so you can afford it. Does she factor into her opinion that men are so ambitious and talented and ask for raises etc that women asking for raises are judged more than men? And we know this, and build it into our behaviour.

my Dh is on parental leave now by the way, and I work full time. Because I’m privileged to have a well paid job in a supportive company. Where’s the pressure on men to do the pick up or drop off and cook dinner 4 x a week so it’s easier for both to work? That’s not a lifestyle choice, that’s women coping in a world where men’s expectations call the shots. Kudos to those men who are equal partners and to those women who insist on a partnership, but it’s not always simple or easy. What’s she doing to fix it apart from judging everyone who’s not as lucky as her?

Agree, although you do hear about a lot of men that talk the talk but then won't walk the walk. However, for every instance of this there's probably also another example where the red flags were always there.

Yes, certainly not all women have the luxury of choice. But there are also a fair number that seem to rush headlong into having kids with men who exhibit clear red flags. I think there's some truth in both views tbh.

@CaramacFiend
“Nearly 40% of new starters that enter the construction industry through higher education are female nowadays so things are definitely changing. “

I work in Civil Engineering for a Tier 1 contractor. For the last 15yrs I have worked in the industry our graduate recruitment has been 50/50, yet our gender pay gap has not got better, it’s actually got worse in recent years. Having sat in exit interviews, it’s not been to do with having children, it’s unfortunately been the underlying misogyny in the industry.

I have experienced it, and I work for a company that prides itself on ‘great people’. I don’t know one woman (in the industry, and this is across other contractors/architects/clients) who has not experienced sexism in the work place.

Spot on!

Agree, lack of female role models in STEM subjects has a big effect on uptake. See also racial diversity. The latter arguably is a bigger issue, certainly true in my industry.

That’s really good to hear.

The cost for female mammals to have children (time, resources) is much higher per offspring than it is for males. Thus it has been evolutionarily beneficial for female mammals to invest more in the development of their children in order to ensure they survive into adulthood. The same isn't true for males. It's not that long ago in human history that we were driven more strongly by instinct and biology.

Not RTFT however, the low take up of parental leave by men is linked to it being optional and win/lose. For the man to take some, the woman has to give some up. Countries with higher take up rates like Germany and Sweden have a ‘use it or lose it’ policy. 12/15 months in total, each parent must take at least 3 months. I know dads here who were going to take a chunk but then the mother changed her mind.

I also know dads where he was lower earner but she still took all the leave and went part time.

Is part of the problem not also women them selves.

How many women do you meet in the real world, and on here, who have no intention of giving up part of their maternity leave to their DH because the feel entitled to it or the hormones take over.

So, at some point we totally diverged from our primate ancestors and completely stopped exhibiting sex based differences? Not buying that I'm afraid.

Other primates also have learned social behaviour you know! Not everything is genetic, obviously.

I work at a STEM firm where they've managed (deliberately or otherwise) to get close to a 50 / 50 split on male and female staff. It's also ethnically very diverse.

I haven't noticed any sexism or racism so far, though saw it often at firms which were less balanced.

I work in Civil Engineering for a Tier 1 contractor. For the last 15yrs I have worked in the industry our graduate recruitment has been 50/50, yet our gender pay gap has not got better, it’s actually got worse in recent years. Having sat in exit interviews, it’s not been to do with having children, it’s unfortunately been the underlying misogyny in the industry.

I can confirm it's the same in some other male dominated professions, also.

Goodness what awful women wanting to be mother to their own children.

What I think is sad now is how it is almost impossible to live on one wage so women are forced to go back to work even if they don't want to. To me having that choice taken away from a woman is even worse than anything that happens in the work place.

I'm glad your friend thinks she's on the path to the perfect life and true equality OP, but she sounds like an eternal bore. It would have been interesting to see how all her plans worked out though if she had left him.

I agree with you OP, except to say that while for many it is ‘lifestyle choice’ for others on lower incomes it is necessity.

I think it comes back to housing costs and the fact that a family cannot live comfortably on a single average wage.

If it’s a choice between one car or two, many can afford to put principles first. If it’s a choice between affording the rent or being homeless and ending up in a B&B, not so much.

Goodness what awful women wanting to be mother to their own children.

You stop being a mother when not on maternity leave?