To think this “crackdown” on benefit fraud is absolutely pathetic

[MissLou0]

We lose hundreds of billions from tax avoidance compared to 1 billion on benefit fraud and nothing is done about it, because those are the Tory donors. Michelle Mone just stole £28 million from taxpayers for her PPE scam, she’s not in trouble, and she of course also hides her hundreds of millions offshore.

We lose a small amount from benefit fraud, and as a result everyone who claims any sort of benefit including disability benefits banks are going to be monitored.

The graph below doesn’t even scratch the surface of how much is lost to tax avoidance. For example Rupert Murdoch is worth £17 billion and he hasn’t paid tax in years, personal tax or on his businesses. And he’s ONE person. These people are not targeted yet the most desperate and vulnerable are.

This is completely ignored by the media as the majority of newspaper owners are hiding their money offshore.

I’m in a situation where I don’t need to claim any benefits but I have family who are disabled who have had to fight for even the tiniest amount to live on, and they are now having to deal with this invasion of privacy which will make not even 0.000001% of what cracking down on tax avoidance would.

If you're not doing anything wrong then what's wrong with checks?

If you’ve read the full thread you’ll know what’s wrong with that statement.

And if you’re talking about reporting people you don’t think should be claiming disability benefits, just stop and think about that for a moment. Can anyone really tell how disabled someone is just by looking at them ? Unless you live with someone full time, and you know how their disability affects them 24 hours a day, unless you’re privy to their medical records and have the necessary medical training to understand them, and are also privy to the information on their benefit claim, then you’re really not qualified to say whether or not they ‘deserve’ the benefits they’re claiming are you ?

These claimants have been through the DWP process, they’ve provided medical evidence to support their claim, and they’ve been assessed face to face before benefit has been awarded. Yes, a few fraudsters do get through - happens in any system. But just because someone ‘doesn’t look disabled’ doesn’t mean they’re a fraudster. Sickness and disability comes in all shapes and sizes.

The only people who say things like "if you've got nothing to hide, what's wrong with checks?" have never claimed benefits.

I'm currently being investigated for supposedly not declaring £13k in savings that I don't have. That's the issue

Yes. They make so many "mistakes" and get it wrong so often that it goes way beyond mere incompetence and starts to look deliberate.

I start to think that the main reason for getting out of the EU is to do whatever they want. Obviously, if the UK was in the EU this wouldn't happen because they need to obey EU law. I haven't heard of any European country stopping benefits because of an investigation. It is a disgrace that they target the most vulnerable. They can make hundreds of excuses for COVID, etc. The truth is that most working people claim UC because they cannot afford private renting with their salaries. Don't want to mention targeting disable people. It is dirgace.

Leaders of Brexit always wanted to leave EU so there was less regulation and more money to be made by those at the top.

Sorry not read through most recent posts but just sharing a good summary on Twitter by a social policy expert on how yesterday’s budget will affect the sick and disabled. As we knew, the whole thing is a cost cutting exercise on some sick and disabled claimants (particularly those with considerable mental health problems) with no care of the damaging effect on those sick and disabled who it will effect. The OBR report even acknowledges tightening the WCA criteria is expected by by 2028-29, to mean 𝟑𝟕𝟏,𝟎𝟎𝟎 fewer people will be protected from conditionality & from a higher rate of benefit, yet they only expect 10,000 of these to get back into employment! So just a cruel financial cut for 361,000 people. This group of people with be too sick to work but will get the same as someone unemployed but fit and healthy. Unemployment support is set low as it it’s supposed to be temporary.

X/Twitter thread:

“It's understandable, given that I think the Government has wilfully blurred the lines, but there's been some misreading of what yesterday's announcements will mean for ill & disabled people so I thought it was worth offering my interpretation of where things stand... [1/10]

The key announcement was planned changes to the criteria for the Work Capability Assessment (WCA), to kick in from 2025, meaning fewer people with mobility issues & mental health problems will be declared to have 'limited capability for work related activity' (LCWRA) [2/10]

People in this group get an additional £390 a month & are exempt from conditionality. Many people will instead be placed in the 'limited capability for work' (LCW) group, where they would lose this additional payment & be required to 'prepare for' but not apply for work [3/10]

Initially these changes would just affect new applicants, but increasingly also people who are being reassessed. The OBR expects to see 371,000 fewer people in the more protected group by 2028-29 than under current rules & most of these would instead be in the LCW group [4/10]

These proposals are deeply worrying, particularly as the OBR only expects 10,000 of this 371,000 to have moved into work by this time. So people will have lower benefits & more pressure & threats, but are unlikely to have found the jobs this is supposed to be all about [5/10]

However, some of the harsher threats that have been announced - around people losing benefits altogether if they fail to seek work for six months, or being pushed into mandatory work placements after 18 months - would not currently affect people in the LCWRA or LCW groups [6/10]

These threats are aimed at people subject to 'full work requirements', which would mean they've either never flagged an illness/disability or have been assessed as 'fit for work' (although, of course, neither of these is guaranteed to mean the person is not ill/disabled) [7/10]

None of this is to downplay concerns about the planned reforms, but it's important for ill & disabled people already in the system to know that these changes will not happen overnight & that they are not likely to suddenly be expected to seek work under threat of sanctions [8/10]

However, there are worrying longer-term implications as the Government has said it would like to ultimately scrap the WCA & leave conditionality entirely at work coach discretion. This would be incredibly dangerous, especially given the harsher punishments being planned [9/10]

There will be time to scrutinise & challenge these proposed changes before they are implemented & there will of course be an election before then too!

What this group needs is security & genuine support offered on a voluntary basis, not more pressure & threats of cuts [10/10] “

Forgot to attach screenshot of OBR report in my comment above saying only expect 10,000 people to return to employment from the expected by 2027/2928 371,000 of those who will get less financial support.

Just over 2 million UC claimants were working according to last years figures. Over 28 million people are employed, plus 4 million self employed. Not even a large minority.

And screenshot of OBR report predicting 371,000 less people qualifying for the extra £390 a month due to no longer being put in the ESA or UC LWRCA group. (This will be people with mobility problems or mental health problems. Only those who get psychosis will get people put in LWRCA). This is on top of cuts to out of the work sickness benefits introduced under Conservatives a few years ago when old style ESA was amalgamated into UC. For example when I am eventually made to migrate to UC from ESA I will be getting £30 less a week than currently and which will go down a further £20 in time due to £20 of what I get will be only transitional coverage from ESA to UC. UC does not have the disability premiums that old style ESA has for some claimants who get certain rates of PIP. No new claimants get this.

Thanks for the informative posts @Crispedia

I remember when the announcement came about scrapping the WCA. I am on LCWRA and not on PIP, so the changes will affect me. I was an anxious mess. Like you said, nothing will happen overnight, and I do take comfort in that.

@XenoBitch have you any idea, roughly, when these changes might come into effect? Also, I'm a full time carer for my dh, I get Carers allowance as he is in receipt of PIP. I wonder how these changes will effect carers. At the moment there is no requirement on me to find work or prepare for work due to him being on PIP. Obviously, if he has to seek work then I suppose I will too. I can hardly accompany him into a workplace as his carer, like some kind of assistance dog! He also had support workers who give me a break twice a week. I suppose we'll lose them too as, again, they can hardly accompany him to whatever job /work experience placement he might get forced to undertake.

Changes to the WCA are from 2025, and for new claimants. I will be honest, and say I don' know how it will affect people like yourself who are registered as a carer for a loved one.
I hope someone that knows more can answer that for you, as it must be an anxious time for you too.

@XenoBitch thank you so much for that information. I'm guessing then that people who already claim, will be looked at later. I feel so sorry for everyone who has been put in this worrying position and I feel sorry anyone who becomes ill and can't work in the future. Thanks to everyone on here who keeps posting information and advice.

I guess it would boil down to whether you are still providing 35 hours of care to him a week even if he was working. If only working part time then it's likely you would be and there would be no problem still claiming carers allowance. No-one ever checks up on what caring is being done anyway, as long as the cared for person is in receipt of the disability benefit, someone can claim carers.

From what I can gather from reading the proposals, a lot more people will be put in the LCW group rather than LCWRA. the ones already in LCWRA won't face any re-assessments unless a change in circumstances ( this seems ludicrous to me, people already seem to be going years without being re-assessed. People with severe mental health conditions will rightly be protected and be awarded LCWRA. I worry about some of the client group I help, those with dependency issues in particular as no way would most of them cope with looking for work. The report seems to say that they have consulted lots of people's views, medical professionals, charities etc and we hear what you are saying but are going to ignore it anyway ! I do think change is needed but am worried that inflicting more financial hardship on people with even 'milder' mh issues could just cause things to spiral. Worried also as to where they are suddenly going to get thousands more talking therapists from and that a lot of people don't actually find this kind of thing helpful. I work in benefits advice and already getting clients extremely anxious about what the changes will mean for them. can't imagine what it is going to be like in eighteen months or so when loads of people start being awarded LCW instead of LCWRA.

What is the difference between LCW and LCWRA is it just the additional payment for LCWRA. If in the LCW group are you still exempt from work related activity ?

Yes with LCWRA you get an extra £390 per month on your Uc claim and are exempt from looking for work or doing any kind of work search/ preparing for work. With LCW there is no extra money although you still get a work allowance ( if you don't qualify for that by other means), and you are not required to look for work but are expected to take some steps to getting back to work and have some appointments with a work coach etc.

@Babyroobs thanks for that information. My dh has psychosis, I care for him full time. He now won't leave the house alone, won't stay in alone (we are lucky enough to be provided with support workers twice a week to give me a break) he's heavily medicated with anti psychotic drugs and needs help to administer them etc He's also currently undergoing Memory tests.
He's in support group ESA, has been since 2020 and since then he's been reassessed by them twice but this has been done without him having to complete more forms or be interviewed, so I guessed they based it on him being rewarded PIP? He was reassessed this year and told he'll be reassessed again in 2025. He's been with the psychosis team for the maximum of 3 years that you can do and is now under the CMHT. He's been with them just over a year and has only just seen a psychotherapist as there is such a long waiting list. As you say, where on earth are they going to find all these new therapists from? It seems to me that the government don't care how long people will have to wait for this "talking therapy", they'll just be pleased that during that time they will no longer have to pay them the extra £390.

LCW group are not exempted from work related activity, LCWRA are.

You won’t be on either LCW or LCWRA if you’re a carer so you would fall into the non disabled rules being introduced for long term unemployed - more conditionality and sanctions will apply if you are still not working after 18 months. You’re allowed to earn £139 a week after deductions and still claim carers allowance, so theoretically at least, you could still manage 35 hours of care depending on whether some care is given during the night. You would be assigned a work coach and it would then be a case of discussing with them, how to fit your caring duties around work, and how many hours are appropriate up to the maximum earnings limit.

@MissLou0 please can you let me know where you got that graph? I'd like to be able to share it from its source with a few people.

Economically we would be far, far better off reclaiming even just 1% of the money sent to Tory chums in the PPE scandal than doing anything at all about false benefit claims.

But as this thread demonstrates, people get far more frothy and het up about Sid down the road and his hypothetical big TV and 19 children in a special council house then they do about £118bn going missing on PPE scams in the middle of the worst crisis we have had in most people's living memory.

Carers aren't long term unemployed. They're exempt from seeking work

Yep, changes taking place from 2025 are aimed at reducing the LCWRA numbers, so some of the Work Capability Assessment stand alone descriptors such as continence, mobility and safety issues which currently qualify claimants for LCWRA will disappear. The government justified this by saying that the more severely disabled didn’t need this protection as they could work from home. Only new claimants will be affected at first, but the WCA is due to be scrapped altogether by 2029 so there will likely be a migration process for all claimants to the new system - possibly using a change of circumstance as a flag at first. Then it will be up to DWP ‘therapists’ to decide who is exempt from work related activity - those deemed fit for WRA would then be assigned individual work coaches to assist with efforts to find work and would decide on conditionality and benefit sanctions where a claimant is deemed not to be engaging with the new system.

Note. The government hasn’t said one word about where they expect all these WFH vacancies to come from, or how they’re going to persuade employers to engage with taking on some of the most sick and disabled people in the country - a fair proportion of whom will be having ongoing treatment and many more who will have been unemployed for long periods of time. If they were genuinely concerned about supporting disabled people into work they would have worked this out before introducing conditionality. It’s not about support, it’s about reducing the benefits bill and that’s why they’ve been vague in their announcements on the subject so far.

The absolutely ridiculous thing is that my dh has been approved by the local council for Support workers as he cannot be left alone. If I am now forced to get a job if he gets moved to just LCW and I lose my carer's exemption from having to seek work (please note, I'm not workshy, worked full time for 35 years before he became ill and I had to resign to take care of him) then I will probably only be able to get get a minimum wage job and the person they have to supply to look after my husband whilst I am at work, will be costing the council over £16 an hour (that's what the current support team charges)or he will have to go into a residential home, again both at a higher cost to the government than me staying at home and looking after him, getting paid my measly carers allowance (of which I am extremely grateful for). Someone somewhere has got this very wrong.

At the moment yes, they are. But there was something in the ‘Chance to Work’ consultation and included in the White Paper for it, outlining future plans for carers as outlined in my post. I’ll see if I can find a link, but it was a while ago.