To think this “crackdown” on benefit fraud is absolutely pathetic

[MissLou0]

We lose hundreds of billions from tax avoidance compared to 1 billion on benefit fraud and nothing is done about it, because those are the Tory donors. Michelle Mone just stole £28 million from taxpayers for her PPE scam, she’s not in trouble, and she of course also hides her hundreds of millions offshore.

We lose a small amount from benefit fraud, and as a result everyone who claims any sort of benefit including disability benefits banks are going to be monitored.

The graph below doesn’t even scratch the surface of how much is lost to tax avoidance. For example Rupert Murdoch is worth £17 billion and he hasn’t paid tax in years, personal tax or on his businesses. And he’s ONE person. These people are not targeted yet the most desperate and vulnerable are.

This is completely ignored by the media as the majority of newspaper owners are hiding their money offshore.

I’m in a situation where I don’t need to claim any benefits but I have family who are disabled who have had to fight for even the tiniest amount to live on, and they are now having to deal with this invasion of privacy which will make not even 0.000001% of what cracking down on tax avoidance would.

He announced the changes to the disability benefits system but, as predicted he didn’t go into any great detail, and he certainly didn’t make it clear that these proposals are aimed at the sickest and most disabled people in the country - people who have already been deemed to be unable to work by the present system. The government can’t change the fact that these people are too sick to work, so they have to change the system used to assess their ability to work - in other words they will move the goalposts, remove support and make it very difficult not to engage with the new process.

I’m not entirely sure we could go back to something like sheltered workshops set up from scratch now to be honest. If you ask the ex employees I’m sure they would say that they would rather be gainfully employed at reduced rates in a supportive environment, than living on benefits - personally I think that’s a valid point of view but I’m not sure it would be acceptable these days. I think the bigger problem here was that the extra support promised to the ex employees never materialised and a fair proportion either found work under their own steam or remain unemployed. The Tories have an appalling record when it comes to their treatment of disabled claimants and if what happened with Remploy is anything to go by, I don’t hold out much hope for a fair shake for the disabled under these plans.

I'm either stupid or he's been extremely evasive but I watched the whole thing and I didn't think he mentioned targeting those already claiming sickness and disability benefits. Was he referring to those with LCWRA etc when he talked about forcing people into work placements if they'd been on benefits for so long and hadn't found a job? I'd like to see them put my psychotic dh into work experience somewhere, the place would be closed down by lunchtime!

Evasive is the word. And I haven't found anything regarding the plan to start spying on bank accounts.

Hopefully they'll drop that idea.

He didn’t mention targeting those already claiming, or that the measures are being specifically aimed at those with LCWRA. He was, as I and a few others on the thread predicted, deliberately vague. But he did confirm that these plans would be enacted and the plans to force people into work placements if they’re still unemployed after 18 months will apply to everyone, including those currently in LCWRA, unless they have been redefined as unable to work under whatever eligibility criteria are introduced as part of the new system. The details of what’s being proposed can easily be found on various websites - I’ve posted a few links upthread.

The legislation to introduce AI monitoring of claimant bank accounts has already been introduced I think. There is already an agreement to data sharing in the contract between DWP and the claimant, so it’s just an extension of that - so instead of asking for periodic bank statements, DWP will utilise the banks’ capability to use AI to check claimants’ accounts every month. It’s being rolled out as part of the crackdown on UC claims, and will be extended to all means tested benefits in time. There are also plans to collect data on how benefit money is spent - doesn’t take a genius to work out how they’ll use that information.

I can't see how its legal to link peoples benefits to an AI interpretation of their bank statement; at the same time its not possible for people to stop anyone paying money into their bank account.

Thank you
And no it does not. I think I'll be withdrawing mine in cash in the future. The idea of being spied on makes me extremely anxious even though I'm not actually doing anything wrong.

@Rosscameasdoody thanks so much for that information. It's absolutely terrifying, I pray there is a change of government before these worrying plans can ever be put in place.

It's very easy to say "tax the rich" or make tax avoidance illegal but it's more complicated then that.

It’s the super rich who should be taxed more. According to the Sunday times rich list, the 1000 richest people in the UK increased their wealth by £500 billion since 2009. Whilst the majority of wage earners have found their standard of living drop since 2009, the super rich have seen their wealth soar. Yes, some would make changes if they were taxed more, but the govt could raise more revenue from them than currently and they should pay more after doing so spectacularly well from quantitive easing etc.

Conservatives have always wanted a smaller state and to undo the achievements of post-war Western Europe after the 2WW in providing security for its people. They want and are slowly achieving the US model of people having to take out private insurance for things such as cover for long term sickness and disability as they know state support will be so meagre. Rich don’t care as can afford it, will cost middle-class more than the current universal system and the poor are left to rely on threadbare state support if they become sick and disabled as they can’t afford private insurance cover when on low wages. Professor McKee in an article in the BMJ entitled “The assault on universalism: how to destroy the welfare state” makes this exact point:

“Who benefits from this progressive degradation of the welfare state? Obviously not the lower classes. But nor do the middle classes, as the new, complex, and individualised systems are more expensive than what existed previously, often of poorer quality, and invariably far more complicated. The real beneficiaries are the very rich, who no longer have to pay for services they never used anyway”*

Global financial crash allowed the coalition govt to say back in 2010 austerity was necessary and begin shrinking state welfare support considerably plus public services cuts. Austerity was an economic failure and did not promote good economic growth. (By contrast, the USA launched a financial stimulus at that time under Obama and the American economy grew much more than the U.K.) Covid is now giving them another smokescreen for further cuts. Govt keep saying - and parroted by newspapers - a record number of people are on out of work sickness benefits, 2.6 million, and it is a national scandal. (Note these are separate to disability benefits) Yet this is the same figure as those on out of work sickness benefits in 2010. They declined a bit in subsequent years then have risen by approximately 450,000 after covid back to 2010 figure of 2.6 million.

* researchonline.lshtm.ac.uk/id/eprint/20547/1/bmj.d7973.full.pdf

I think the lesson here is that if you are a means tested benefit claimant you need to examine your bank account before these plans take effect, and make sure you know what goes into your bank, as well as when and why. That way you’re sure you can justify everything if you are challenged.

The Tories like to float different plans to see how the public responds to them. If they perceive that the response is unfavourable then plans can be dropped. But I wouldn’t count on it with this - they have a solid reason for proposing to use AI to check claimant accounts. It’s cheap and it’s easy to implement, and the justification is that it’s to protect the public purse. As for the legality, it’s just an extension of legislation already in place - the ‘rights and responsibilities’ contract between DWP and claimant, which includes an agreement to the collection and sharing of information with other agencies. At present this includes the banks, where DWP suspects the claimant of fraud. The only difference is that AI will check all claimant accounts regularly. I could see DWP successfully arguing that this will better protect public funds by detecting fraud and error earlier.

👏👏👏. Very well said. Scary but true.

What good will examining my bank account do when I don't have the facility to stop anyone paying money into my account?

This proposal is not merely an extension of the existing agreement and its dishonest to present it as such. Its an entirely new proposal; the routine monitoring of innocent people who have not been accused or suspected of a crime is new.

I don’t understand what you mean by not having the facility to stop people paying into your bank account. If you’re claiming means tested benefits you will have provided bank statements when you first claimed and DWP routinely request banks statements periodically to check on claimants. I’m not being dishonest. I’m presenting the facts as I see them. The government will justify the use of AI as a tool to protect the public purse, by detecting fraud and error earlier and preventing same. And I wouldn’t bank on a Labour government stopping any of these plans. Starmer and his shadow work and pensions minister Liz Kendal, are said to think the plans don’t go far enough.

I know you don't get the problem I'm trying to point out, but do you support the proposal?

They have no right to invade peoples financial privacy.
MPs are paid by the taxpayer, maybe we should be allowed to see how they spend their taxpayers money. Shades of China there and the credit system.

This government is fucking awful.

Its crazy. I don't understand how people can't see that the State monitoring people who have committed no crime is a problem.
Banks can transfer money into your account by accident and there's nothing you can do to stop that happening. The AI triggers an investigation, the DSS stops your benefits, and you'll have to clear your name. Guilty until proven innocent is not justice.
And don't think they'll stop with benefit claimants.

I don’t get why you are saying you can’t stop people paying money into your bank account. It’s your bank account !!

And if you have read and understood any of my previous numerous posts on the thread you would know the answer to that question. No. I do not support the proposal, but it doesn’t concern me nearly as much as what the government are planning to impose on the very sickest and most disabled in the country.

I don’t hold with the ‘if you’re doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear’ viewpoint. Most sick and disabled people are not doing anything wrong, but if these proposals go ahead, they will have everything to fear - they will still be sick and disabled but the government will have moved the goalposts on how that’s defined for benefit purposes. Same goes with the proposal to monitor bank accounts. It’s an invasion of privacy and another step towards dehumanising and demonising benefit claimants - and a stealth move in the direction of eventually monitoring everyone. And the worry is that even if you don’t think you’re doing anything wrong, the AI bot may find something perfectly innocent to flag up which will get your benefit suspended while DWP investigate. That clear enough for you ?

I don't think it's going to work too well to try and force everyone sick and disabled, into work.

Some may be able to, but many won't, and sanctions are just a sledgehammer cracking a nut. 🙁

That happens now without AI. Someone reports you for suspected benefit fraud. DWP investigate and the minute they think they have something on you benefit is stopped while they investigate. The use of AI will be justified as protecting the public purse by detecting and stopping fraud and error sooner, therefore saving tax payers money. It is a problem from the point of view of invasion of privacy, and yes, it’ll be the forerunner to wide scale monitoring. But if the government want to introduce it they have the legal framework in which to do it and the justification.

The AI proposal is not the same as the current system (which is bad enough imo.)

Its really weird that you cannot limit payments going in to your bank account. IDK why anyone finds the suggestion outrageous. I'm not expecting any sudden windfalls.
I want the bank to put a hold on those payments and investigate, not grass me up to an AI.

If the govt wants the right to monitor us all the time, and to create a system that penalises people when they have unexpected money paid into their bank account without their knowledge or permission; then I want the legal right to protect myself from wrongful accusations.

The government know there will be some people who really can’t work. This is not about supporting sick and disabled people, it’s about introducing conditionality and sanctions where there were none before, for people not previously compelled to work. They know that they can’t change the fact of disability and serious illness. But they can move the goalposts on how that’s defined and make it difficult for people not to engage with the system, via sanctions and stopping benefit.

The first step is dismantling the work capability assessment - the mechanism for protecting the most vulnerable. Followed by removing the issue of fit notes from medics and putting them in the hands of DWP assessors - the same assessors who are making such a mess of assessing for disability benefits. So DWP control from end to end how disabled people are assessed and classed or not classed as sick/disabled or fit/unfit for work.

You can want all you like, but the plain fact is that when you claim benefit you enter into a contract with the government, which gives them the right to collect and share information about you. It’s this existing legislation that will be built on to allow for AI. And DWP already allow claimants to protect themselves from wrongful accusations - if the investigation clears the claimant of any wrongdoing the case will be closed and benefit will be put back into payment. That’s what happens now. AI will just make it easier and cheaper to implement.

I assume they will monitor 2nd accounts with the same bank as well as the account the benefits are paid into?

I get mine paid into a savings account with no debit card attached and transfer what I need to my current account when I am making a purchase or to cover a DD.

I only do it this way to control my spending better. Less chance of an impulse buy this way and I can see more easily what money I have left.

But I'm now concerned that this might look as if I'm trying to hide something.

Oh the paranoia ffs. No one should have to worry about such trivia. 🙄