To think this “crackdown” on benefit fraud is absolutely pathetic

[MissLou0]

We lose hundreds of billions from tax avoidance compared to 1 billion on benefit fraud and nothing is done about it, because those are the Tory donors. Michelle Mone just stole £28 million from taxpayers for her PPE scam, she’s not in trouble, and she of course also hides her hundreds of millions offshore.

We lose a small amount from benefit fraud, and as a result everyone who claims any sort of benefit including disability benefits banks are going to be monitored.

The graph below doesn’t even scratch the surface of how much is lost to tax avoidance. For example Rupert Murdoch is worth £17 billion and he hasn’t paid tax in years, personal tax or on his businesses. And he’s ONE person. These people are not targeted yet the most desperate and vulnerable are.

This is completely ignored by the media as the majority of newspaper owners are hiding their money offshore.

I’m in a situation where I don’t need to claim any benefits but I have family who are disabled who have had to fight for even the tiniest amount to live on, and they are now having to deal with this invasion of privacy which will make not even 0.000001% of what cracking down on tax avoidance would.

The Guardian at least are publicising this.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/18/minister-warned-about-mental-pressure-of-benefits-system-after-applicant-kills-himself

@AutumnCrow just read your link. That is absolutely terrible and I fear there are going to be more of these tragic cases if these "attacks" on the sick and disabled go ahead.

I work in welfare rights. We are a tiny team (equivalent to 3.5 FT staff) and one of our KPIs is how much extra money we get for clients by identifying benefits they are entitled to, but not claimed, or benefits being underpaid.

In 22/23, this was over £680,000 - equivalent to nearly £200k for each FT worker. In the 5+ years that I've been in this role, the number of people getting paid more than they should be is vanishingly tiny, and off the top of my head, I can only think of 4 such cases, and none of them had led to overpayments of more than approx £5k. One client had been underpaid so much, for so long, that her arrears payment was in excess of £25k, and 5-figure sums are not unusual.

We routinely do a full benefit check for every client that's referred to us, which is how we identify over- and underpayments. If our experience is in any way indicative of the overall picture, the level of underpayments nationally must be massive. And it's no surprise that the introduction of the Welfare Reform Act, which made it harder to get benefits, also coincided with the end of Legal Services Commission funding for welfare rights work.

Disability benefits (DLA/PIP) are paid to people in work, and lots of people with disabilities and life limiting conditions have jobs and careers. Those payments are not means tested. But surely the first group that need to be working are those without disabilities or chronic conditions.

I’ve been retired for some time, but I had lots of colleagues who could have used their disability to claim they couldn’t work. My last boss had MS, I’ve had colleagues with Autism, partially sighted (one brought his guide dog to work), wheelchair users, amputees, people with epilepsy. I also had clients without disabilities who could have worked, but found all sorts of reasons not to. Its not fraud, but is it acceptable? Is it good for children to grow up in an environment where they don’t learn the value of work, or the opportunities it might bring?

I have been bedridden now for 10 years with severe ME, even when moderate I was too sick to work.

I also had clients without disabilities who could have worked, but found all sorts of reasons not to.

V hard now to get benefits long term if physically and mentally well. Hard even when unwell!

Is this in reference to hunts latest proposal to cut benefits to people who dont work? I completely agree with you, the tories make me sick, I try to avoid reading things on this topic as it can really chew you up inside.

That's obviously not her argument. Shes saying they make a big fuss about benefit fraud and trying to reduce benefit payments, but because they are scum they dont have any plans to crack down on tax evasion.

So, the disabled people you mentioned could work. Good for them. An amputee is not going to be having constant time off of work for medical appointments, or end up in hospital regularly.... neither is the partially sighted person.
Many people with disabilities do want to work, but the workplace is not set up for them, or they come across badly in interviews (such as maybe with someone with autism), or they will just need too much time off of work to manage and recover from their conditions.

There is little help out there to get disabled people back into work. DWP will see someone wanting to work and cut their benefits to the bone and expect nearly 40 hours a week jobhunting, then applying for full time roles.
DWP sees a threat of poverty as a way to get people working. The next budget is going to mention jobseekers having their meagre benefits stopped if they don't find employment within 18 months.... all whilst having any spending watched too. If you have been out of work for over a decade, no qualifications or experience to your name... how are you realistically going to find work in that time? Add a disability to the mix and it makes for a very bleak outlook.

Rupert Murdoch is Australian by birth, but now a citizen of the US. So no, you can't expect him to pay tax in the UK. When you own a media empire, you (with advice) choose the most favourable place to be resident for tax. But if you work in the UK, for a UK supermarket, use the NHS and expect state education for your children, and a state pension at 67/68, you don't have many choices.

@XenoBitch couldn't agree with you more. I feel like the whole system - from health care to benefits is not designed to enable people or support people to work at all.

“Chancellor Jeremy Hunt doesn’t rule out withdrawing benefits from claimants who have been assessed as unable to work due to ill-health”. V worrying.

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-11-16/chancellor-refuses-to-rule-out-withdrawing-benefits-from-long-term-sick

And please don’t forget those - I am one - who can’t work at all even with support.

@Crispedia indeed. don't get me started on the government's attitude to supporting individuals who are suffering from lifelong, debilitating impairments

Thank you @therealcookiemonster

Absolutely!

Having taken part in various consultations on welfare reform as part of a disability support charity, I think a lot of it is simply rehashing and updating on what’s gone before. As usual with the Tories, it will be the very most vulnerable who will be at the sticky end of the cuts and increased conditionality. Because they are the ones who cost the most and the easiest to identify.

I’ve never seen the point of these consultations because by the time they’re put in motion the government already has plans in the pipeline, and if anyone thinks they’re going to take notice of what disabled people or their spokespeople say they want/need, they’re in lala land. It’s just paying lip service and then going ahead with what they were going to do all along. The Cameron/Clegg coalition consulted on changing DLA to PIP. The result was an overwhelming ‘no’. They still went ahead despite a manifesto promise not to tinker with DLA. During the consultation for PIP, they put forward the proposal to reduce the walking test from 50m to 20m. Again a resounding no - it still went ahead and the then minister for the disabled tried to blame it on the consultation, saying that it was proposed and backed by some disability organisations. She then had the embarrassing task of backtracking when she was proved wrong.

There are parts of the new proposals that worry me. For example they’re proposing to take away the issuing of fit notes from GP’s and into the hands of ‘therapists’ who work for the DWP. This puts whether a sick/disabled person actually gets a fit note and qualifies for benefits into the hands of the same people who have made such a dogs breakfast of assessing for other disability benefits and who have been responsible for the ballooning of the benefits bill because so many people have to go to appeal to get a fair decision. If the DWP are going to have the last word in determining who is actually sick or disabled it’s not hard to see where things are headed is it ?

The other thing that worries me is the proposal to tighten up on the work capability assessment. Those with continence and mobility issues, or other serious conditions meaning that they are presently not compelled to work or engage with work related activity are going to be assessed differently, and if their condition means they cannot work in open employment, they will be compelled to work from home - God alone knows how the government is going to conjure up all these WFH vacancies or compel employers to take on seriously ill/disabled people. And this from a Tory party whose first mission in government was to close Remploy and other sheltered workshops for the disabled, where they were gainfully employed and paid. They promised extra support for those made redundant to find other work. It never materialised. Not exactly a track record to be proud of when supporting disabled people into work is it ?

Hunt was talking in The Times, about ‘stick and carrot’. Not surprisingly he wanted to discuss more carrot than stick and when asked about new proposals for benefit sanctions he wouldn’t be specific - citing the consultation results ahead of the Autumn statement on Wednesday. One proposal is to scrap the LCWRA allowance on UC and ESA. This is the higher payment addition for those deemed too ill/disabled to work - Limited Capacity for Work Related Activity. UC/ESA claimants would be around £390 a month worse off. He wouldn’t be drawn on whether this proposal was under serious consideration, or whether it would apply to existing as well as new claimants.

It’s all very worrying - despite the prospect of a change of government. Starmer, and shadow DWP minister Liz Kendall are said to consider that the plans don’t go far enough, so sick and disabled people can’t take much comfort from the prospect of a general election.

Mel Stride, DWP minister, basically said that if people are fit to work, playing the system and coasting on the backs of the tax payer, they could expect to have their benefits stopped if they don’t engage properly with back to work regulations. In principle I have no problem with this. What I do have a problem with is that if these proposals are anything to go by, the governments’ idea of who is fit to work will likely be very different from the reality and the vulnerable ‘low hanging fruit’ will once again be at the brunt end.

@Rosscameasdoody absolutely. Its very frightening for disabled people. Im disabled but work...a lot genuinely can't, and worrying about benefits as sole income beyond their control is , tbh, a matter of life or death.

One proposal is to scrap the LCWRA allowance on UC and ESA.

@Rosscameasdoody, Is that for all ESA claimants? I read for those not also in receipt of PIP? Still bad of course.

As usual with the Tories, it will be the very most vulnerable who will be at the sticky end of the cuts and increased conditionality.

The cuts to disability and sickness benefits (new PIP and ESA) in 2011 and 2017 affected those too sick to work but not extremely sick or those disabled but not as severely as some. Was cruel.

It’s not clear whether this is for all ESA/UC claimants as Hunt declined to comment when he was asked - said it would have to wait until the Autumn Statement. PIP has no bearing on this, as it doesn’t assess a claimants’ ability to work and can be claimed whether working or not. I think the question is whether it applies to both contribution based and means tested ESA as well as UC and whether it will affect those already claiming as well as new claimants. The DWP are on record as saying the rollout will only affect new claimants, but they’ve backtracked before in similar issues.

l think it’s important for people not to panic because there is no legislation in place to enact any of this. Planned changes to the work capability assessment won’t be enacted until 2025 and the actual changes to benefit are not being introduced until at least 2026/27 - not forgetting that they still have to get the plans through parliament - both houses. I doubt there will be time for any of that before the general election, so then it becomes a question of whether a Labour government would run with the plans as they are.

For anyone wanting to know more about the proposed changes to the work capability assessment, and benefits here is a link to the Disability Rights website page on the subject. https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/dwp-launches-wca-changes-consultation-aimed-reducing-number-claimants-%E2%80%98limited-capability-work#:~:text=%E2%80%9CIn%20March%202023%20there%20were,result%20in%20a%20LCWRA%20classification.

It highlights how these changes are not being introduced to support the most vulnerable into work, but an attempt to reduce claimant numbers by introducing harsh conditionality to benefit entitlement for the very sickest and most disabled claimants where there was none before. They know many claimants will no longer qualify and as a result very vulnerable people will be forced into unsuitable work. I suggest those of you here who have expressed agreement with what the government is proposing click on the link and look at what is actually being proposed. The measure of a civilised society is how we treat our sick, disabled and elderly. I’ll leave you to draw your own conclusions on how the UK fares on that.

It is cheap and ugly vote catching. We have seen it so many time, mainly, but not exclusively, from the Conservatives. It is the old promise to 'crack down on the undeserving poor, the workless, the work-shy, the immigrants who should not be here'. It is the old false narrative that there are billions of lazy people who will not work or have no right to be here, who are costing the hard-working tax payer billions every year'.

The narrative is untrue, and, as others have said, increases the stigma against the most vulnerable groups in society. Yet it distracts people from the bare, cold truth that this government, like others before it, had fundamentally failed to facilitate real growth in the economy.

Historically, prejudice and victimisation of the poor and vulnerable increases when an economy is failing. That is what is happening here, and it is driven by the government's self seeking false rhetoric.

This. Unfortunately the British public fall for it every time. I was listening to a phone in programme on the proposed benefit changes and a landlord phoned in, spitting venom about lazy people ‘pretending’ to be disabled and driving around in ‘free cars’ while he and others like him were hard working tax payers. He advocated stopping all disability benefits until the claimants had undergone ‘proper medicals’ because he simply didn’t believe that anyone wouldn’t be capable of some work. He clearly didn’t know the first thing about disability/illness, or how disability benefits worked and completely bought into the governments’ narrative.

The host ended the call by asking him if he accepted benefits claimants as tenants. His answer was yes, so clearly not so principled that he wouldn’t accept housing benefit as rent payment !! The problem with what’s happening now is that unless people have had first hand experience of claiming, they have no idea what’s involved or how hard it is to secure disability benefit. Some people on MN seem to think the DWP hand out benefits like sweeties. It only takes a quick google on disability support sites to realise that that just isn’t the case.

Maybe, but the plain fact is, that it isn’t. Show me evidence anywhere that the same crackdown will be made on tax fraud. Benefit claimants are easy meat - always have been. That’s the point.

and those of us who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear.

If you were disabled and claiming disability benefits you would know that that statement is far from the truth. Benefit claimants are all treated as though they have something to hide until proven otherwise - that’s how the system works. Disability benefit claimants have nothing to hide. They support their claims with medical evidence and undergo an assessment by DWP assessors. But they live in fear that the DWP will find some reason to disagree with them and their own doctors, and their benefits will be stopped or reduced as a result. That’s what happens in the real world.