What do you think the end of Western civilisation will look like?

[curiousabouttheaesthetics]

Am hopeful it won't be for a good while yet

But with the whole world being so uncertain at the moment, with climate change and resource wars and mass migration on the horizon, I guess who knows what the coming decades could be like?

Hopefully though human ingenuity can find ways of muddling along as long as possible. If we can't, and if in 100 years high wet bulb temperatures and flooding and antimicrobial resistance has pretty much whittled down half or more of the world's population - do you think then the remaining people would set aside geopolitical differences? To get their smartest people working together to solve environmental problems? And with the rich everywhere pitching in resources?

Or do you think rich countries will just continue to try to hog resources until the bitter end of humanity?

@SmokeyToo I absolutely long for that sense of safety. Things are getting mad pretty quickly. For me it is very backwards and nothing would surprise me anymore.

I don't think Western civilisation will exist in 10 years, possibly sooner, in terms of the values that make countries "Western". We seem to be going backwards very quickly on all things Enlightenment.

I think in the next 5-10 years we will see an extreme reversal of long fought for freedoms and rights via new laws being introduced or laws being rescinded in relation to freedom of thought, freedom of the individual, freedom of speech and most importantly - womens rights (which are already under violent threat from several directions), the rights of homosexuals to live safely, the rights of minority groups to practice their religion/feel safe. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some blasphemy type laws being introduced. Basically a return to the Dark Ages only with dangerous technology thrown in. A hostile environment for women/gays/minorities in the West. Scary times.

I think everyone will be scrambling to move to the north as the Earth gets warmer and the country that controls the majority of fresh water will be in control.

@travelnorth Yeah, it's the trade off we Aussies make, I think. Be a little safer, but have to travel for days to get anywhere exciting!

It really is frightening what's going on at the moment. We have quite a lot going on here, but we've never had the scale of terrorist attack that has happened in the rest of the world. However, we have some very worrying hate speech coming from Imams, some Jewish schools have armed guards, and there has today been news of a Jewish man being attacked and beaten. We've had protests where activists have been filmed chanting "Gas the Jews" - on the steps of the Opera House, our most recognisable national monument. Multitudes of "from the river to the sea..." protests etc.

My biggest issue is why do people migrate to this country, arguably one of the safest and most generous in the world, and bring with them the problems they are purporting to be escaping from? And then raide their children to believe the same? It's just so hard to understand.

@SmokeyToo same here the protests and behaviour have been similar. I know what you mean about people moving in and bringing their mentality, toxic ideologies and issues. It is happening everywhere and is absurd but some may indeed have an agenda.

I will make sure I fight tooth and nail for a better future for my kids. I owe that to them.

As for the real haters they can delete, report and insult all they want but I will stand firmly for my rights.

My biggest issue is why do people migrate to this country, arguably one of the safest and most generous in the world, and bring with them the problems they are purporting to be escaping from? And then raide their children to believe the same? It's just so hard to understand.

It isn’t just Oz. It’s everywhere.

What’s the answer? Stop migration?

This is why Brexit happened and it isn’t the answer either.

@travelnorth I think that's all any of us can do, I think. Stand up for our countries and for our ways of life. For ourselves and our children.

@Blackandwhitemakesgrey Yes, I'm aware it's not just Australia. Stopping migration may not be the answer, but more closely vetting migrants may be.

It's not a question with a simple answer.

This is a work of unparalleled genius though..still makes me giggle.

I think the problem is that people who have lived in the West for generations and have not been subject to persecution see people coming from overseas as all people searching for a better life, and why shouldn't they have the same opportunities/ colonialism etc etc. Which is true. Many people are. But they are also escaping from people who persecuted them because they were gay, because they wanted to be educated as a woman, because they were atheist, because they didn't want their daughters subjected to FGM, did not want to be forced to marry their 60 year old illiterate cousin. They escaped at great personal cost to themselves and they don't want these people then following them to the UK and making their lives a misery again. Which is why many people from immigrant communities don't want huge amounts of immigration. Its not because they are ' pulling up the ladder'its because they don't want the place they escaped from to come to them. There is sectarian violence in the UK between Hindu and Muslim communities that has been brought here from India.That is not my problem, but as an Indian heritage woman with Indian heritage children, I don't want it to be made my problem.

These are the problems of a society that is multicultural and less homogeneous. A homogeneous society can rely on informal social rules to regulate what happens. The less homogenous, the more law, more formal rules you can end up having and it is done by politicians rather than a society that regulates itself. I definitely prefer a society that does that for itself as far as possible, because it is easier for me to live in. It is one of the major attractions of the UK. Is it undermined by identity politics or multiculturalism as "my community next to your community" then yes it is.

You ignore the problems that your lovely homogeneous society created, or at least exuberated, in the world @bombastix
Our lives, even today, in rich countries depends on vast numbers living and working in poverty or "relatively okay" by a standard whose measurement involves pretending they don't know how poor they are compared to wealthy nations and how grossly unfair it is. The biggest privilege of all in this world is the luck of being born in the "right" country and family. Nobody strives hard to earn that

I guess you also don't know the lives of many people who migrate to these shores. A brief forum post wouldn't do justice to the kinds of experiences that I'm aware of.

It's not our fault we were born into a world like this, it is our fault if we ignore and justify it, and then complain about the consequences of doing so

@spookehtooth - I am one person! How do I account for the past? I can't. My observation is still a valid one. A homogeneous society will have other problems but it does not have the problems of multiculturalism without an effective supervening identity, which is not a new idea but something Western society has used for a long time to varying degrees.

I think you can have a homogenous and multi cultural society, as long as you have strict values that everyone has to adhere to that protecs everyone, equally. People belong to different communities - religious, cultural, sporting, hobbies, etc. As long as your belonging to one community doesn't infringe on the rights of others, there is no reason we can't have multicultural communities. Many communities over the years have jntegrated well while keeping hold of their own traditions. I always thought the US way of ' African-American' etc was a good way of saying you are part of the x communities but you are also American was good but they seem to have worse problems, then export them here. Identity politics harms all people from.all communities by sowing division where for most people, none exists.

Yes I think this is possible. But I doubt whether it is possible if you decide there are religious aspects to your life in the West that are more important. Then it falls apart very quickly. You don't need to look far into UK history to see this as a problem and one with violent results

Yes that's what I mean that we need to have overriding values that say ' no, we do not accept that, no matter who you are' and not be afraid to say that some things are unacceptable. For the protection of everyone, including people from within those communities. People have been prosecuted for taking children for FGM for example. If you adhere to that, then crack on. It does require strong political and enforcement systems, which in this country are creaking.

With you @Angrycat2768. The UK spent a lot of time effectively liberalising and removing religious morality from its law in the 1960s and 70s. I don't want it back.

You're exemplifying exactly what is wrong with society right now, by swiftly seeking to shut down a person's differing opinion and not allowing space to talk! You know best, you know it all and the West is to blame for absolutely everything wrong in the world. Can you not see that there is much more to it than that? This is why people in Europe are increasingly voting for extreme right wing parties because their voices are not being listened to and they're scared to speak out in fear of being labelled racist or islamaphobic, so they put their little cross in the box anonymously and suddenly, you have a load of fascists in power ! Without clear dialogue and discourse this is what we're heading towards.

It'll go one of two ways, both resulting in a more repressive/totalitarian regime. Either we continue as we are and a small elite will have control over everything, or we will violently revolt against the small elite and a new elite will emerge that has control over everything.

The rich/poor gap will widen considerably, as a PP said there will be a small group who have all the power and live in obscene luxury whilst the majority will struggle to survive. Not as in the present struggle to survive people have because they live on benefits or low-paid, insecure jobs, but an actual struggle to survive - clean water, energy and any kind of permanent home.

It's easy to blame outside forces - China, Russia and Islam - but even if we are not conquered or colonized from outside, AI will destroy us from within. AI will take away most jobs. Pretty much any job will be able to be done by AI and robots within the next couple of decades. Better than humans can do in most cases. There will soon be a point where there is mass unemployment because there is simply not enough work to go round. The only hope for a "nice" future is that government will decide to pay its citizens a reasonable basic universal income, and AI "workers" enable this to be affordable.

I find that unlikely however, simply because it would represent a major redistribution of relative wealth downwards. Why would the elite countenance that, when they won't countenance it NOW when people are actually working for them, actually doing the work that builds further wealth for those at the top?

@funbags3 leave our Casnewydd alone diolch!!

I think it looks like what we're seeing now:

• Declining faith and trust in underpinning and unifying institutions such as parliamentary democracy and the church
• Lack of unified identity underpinned by shared myths and beliefs
• Declining birth rate
• Declining productivity, export and manufacturing
• Declining technological innovation
• Declining mental health and reported levels of happiness
• Declining participation in civic and community events and institutions
• Declining sense of responsibility towards our families, friends and neighbours

I'd say this is happening all over Western Europe (NOT Central, eastern or southern Europe) and has been since the end of WW1. In the US, I'd say the decline started after the Vietnam War but has been more precipitous.

Civilisational decline takes centuries and so will ours so there's no need to worry. It's not a moral thing, it's no one's fault. Civilisations rise and fall. We don't deserve to be at the top of the heap just cos we're westerners and we've had a good 500 or so years at the top. It is what it is.

@LadyBevvy I have a love/hate relationship.😂Was born there and lived there for many years. It's sad to see the decline in the high street.

I think AI could mean the end of humanity’s role as the dominant species on the planet. Our brief time on this planet will be over.

I think the thing that will stop that is that the rich mainly make money out of others. So if no one has any money, no one can buy stuff. AI won't be buying things or going to the cinema or watching TV or buying houses, and without that, the rich cannot make more money. Its why we are so much debt to China. We couldn't afford their tat so they lent the government money to give to us so we could continue buying tat and make them more money. We may end up with a Universal Basic Income just for that purpose, with rich people getting robots to do everything, but who will programme and maintain the robots? Why should techies and programmers work when the rich and the poor aren't? There will have to be some way to engineer jobs for people who can't sit around maintaining AI systems.

@RubberPlantGirl not at all hysterical no? Nobody's shutdown. You're trying tho, by suggesting I'm wrong for expressing a strong disagreement with someone else 😂 If you got your way and I didn't or wasn't allowed to speak ... is that freedom to you? Be very careful when try telling people not to speak, you might get your wish and all the things you claim to fear on top

I really recommend everyone listens to this podcast hosted by Steven Bartlett, (Diary of a CEO)
It’s frightening but we really need to be aware and educate ourselves on AI. It really is a superb podcast.

But here's one for you @spookehtooth, why would a society be any the stronger for migration? I don't mean in the abstract, I mean in reality.