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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sad at the lack of compassion

138 replies

Gifgirl · 07/11/2023 10:16

Reading through some threads makes me so sad (and mad) sometimes.

Excluding teenagers from homes due to MH conditions, being cross about flags on stickers cos they are rainbows, encouraging your kids to not date someone cos they have a disability.. etc etc.

Acceptance and kindness is a wonderful thing and would make the world a much lovelier place.

Please encourage your kids to accept and include people even if they are different to you. We won't move on until this happens.

OP posts:
millimole · 07/11/2023 23:24

I saw that Primark have seen sense and changed their changing rooms policy. Their previously policy was unisex changing rooms. I had the curtain opened on me by a man.

The new (ish) Primark policy:

We want our stores to be places where everyone feels safe and welcome.
We’re sorry to hear this hasn’t been the experience some people have reported in our fitting rooms.

We’ve listened to feedback from our customers and colleagues and you’ll start to see changes in our UK and ROI stores in the coming weeks.
Here’s what we’re doing:

  1. We will ensure that we offer a *dedicated fitting room area for women,* as well as continuing to offer a combined fitting room area which everyone can use. The set up will vary according to the store layout.
  1. *We are making the cubicles more secure* by introducing longer curtains and a new mechanism to hold the curtains firmly in place.
  1. We are *refreshing our colleague training* in order to ensure that our teams have everything they need to manage the fitting rooms in our stores and support our customers using them.
MavisMcMinty · 07/11/2023 23:28

LittleGreenDragons · 07/11/2023 23:17

Whilst I COMPLETELY agree that we need to find a solution regarding shared spaces, I cannot get on board with trans hate. They are people too. And not all of them are out to hurt us.

The million dollar question that keeps getting asked is how can we tell who are the hurty ones?

We can’t, just as we can’t tell which men are the hurty ones. Which is why we ban all men from our single-sex spaces.

It’s not prejudice, it’s safeguarding women and girls. No hatred, no phobias, it’s just that men are women’s only predators. NOT ALL MEN are predators but enough of them are that we need protection from them at our most vulnerable, e.g. where we may be naked, or sleeping.

EDIT to say I know that you know that @LittleGreenDragons !

NotMyCircusAnymore · 07/11/2023 23:29

But how does saying that we don't agree with mixed spaces, women's refuges, toilets etc actually harms a trans person? A trans person isn't harmed by using the loo for their birth sex. Or if they prefer, they can campaign for a third space or a gender neutral one?

a trans child isn't harmed by parents waiting until they older for allowing them to have surgery.

a trans boy isn't harmed by being told they have to wear trousers instead of a skirt at school. They don't like it. No, and yes it seems unfair considering girls can wear either , but it won't harm them. It's just unfair and annoying.

A trans girl isn't harmed by being told she can't wear a binder until she is older . She will wait and get on with her life in the meantime and if she still wants one when she is older she can have one. Or maybe find a doctor to help her transition.

Bigotry goes both ways. What about that vicar in Yorkshire a few months back when the bank dropped him for saying he didn't think banks needed rainbow flags? What about his beliefs? Isn't this a free country ?

Disagreeing with an ideology is free speech. I am friends with people of different political backgrounds, some are trans, some are lesbian, some are terfs, some don't care. we rub along ok. Because at the end of the day we can agree to disagree.

NotMyCircusAnymore · 07/11/2023 23:41

@LittleGreenDragons MOST transwomen, same as most other men don't want to hurt us. But we can't tell which of them do, they don't wear a sign identifying themselves!

Transwomen are men and within men as a class there are always a tiny minority that hurt women and children . This is a fact and facts trump ideologies.

SmokeyToo · 08/11/2023 00:23

I hate the thought of being "unkind" to anyone. I'm an empathetic person who usually goes out of their way to show compassion to all. However! So many of you have raised great points in this thread and it's very helpful to know that just because I disagree with something, it doesn't make me "unkind".

I grew up in Sydney, Australia in the 80s when gay rights were a huge issue. I had (and have) many gay and lesbian friends that were marginalised in terrible ways and who were openly abused just for being themselves. I hated it and I stood very strongly for gay and lesbian rights because my friends were people first and foremost, just like me.

The rise of the trans agenda is SO worrying. I couldn't care less if someone is trans. But I DO care that an angry and exclusionary trans rights agenda is being shoved down the throats of impressionable kids. And telling straight women and men that we MUST accept whatever they demand, otherwise we're labeled as trans-phobic, sexist, racist blah blah blah. The pendulum has simply swung too far now.

I reiterate that I'm a very kind and compassionate person. But don't tell me I have to accept your agenda - an agenda that impinges on my rights as a woman and the rights of children to grow up without idealistic crap being beaten into them. I will support you IF I THINK IT'S RIGHT. If I don't, you're free to carry on, but you won't find support from me and I won't tolerate your bullshit telling me I'm any sort of "ist" just because I don't agree with you.

LittleGreenDragons · 08/11/2023 00:25

@NotMyCircusAnymore
I know that, I was asking OP to explain.

I think my formatting went a bit wrong. The top half was copied from OPs post, the bottom was my question. Sorry 😬

NotMyCircusAnymore · 08/11/2023 00:30

LittleGreenDragons · 08/11/2023 00:25

@NotMyCircusAnymore
I know that, I was asking OP to explain.

I think my formatting went a bit wrong. The top half was copied from OPs post, the bottom was my question. Sorry 😬

Edited

No problem, it may have been me that misunderstood it's late and I get a bit hard of thinking when it's late! 😀

NotMyCircusAnymore · 08/11/2023 01:01

Gifgirl · 07/11/2023 10:16

Reading through some threads makes me so sad (and mad) sometimes.

Excluding teenagers from homes due to MH conditions, being cross about flags on stickers cos they are rainbows, encouraging your kids to not date someone cos they have a disability.. etc etc.

Acceptance and kindness is a wonderful thing and would make the world a much lovelier place.

Please encourage your kids to accept and include people even if they are different to you. We won't move on until this happens.

@Gifgirl excluding teens from homes due to mental health issues really? Which thread is that one ?

Codlingmoths · 08/11/2023 01:32

@SmokeyToo Hooray for an Aussie! Im really sorry you’ve had clover Moore.

SmokeyToo · 08/11/2023 01:49

@Codlingmoths We Aussies are everywhere, eh? Lol!

Thankfully, I was never under Clover's 'dictatorship'. I was very close (geographically) to the city, but on the north side. Nowadays, I'm up in wine country. But I seriously cannot understand how Clover gets away with what she does! And the fact that she keeps getting re-elected. But she's getting on a bit now and has mumbled about 'passing the batton' - which probably means the electorate will get someone worse!

I left Sydney three years ago for the country life and I've never looked back. The deplorable traffic and general attitude of Sydneysiders these days makes it a horrible place to live. Fine if your young, but I backed out at 50 for a quieter life. Besides, they ruined any fun whatsoever with their draconian laws on nightlife, live entertainment etc. How I miss the heady days of Oxford Street in the 90s!

salsmum · 08/11/2023 03:27

I'm 61 now but when I was a teen I had the most painful, heavy periods ever! I missed half of my exams because the bleeding and cramps were so bad and every ninth I hoped and prayed I'd wake up a boy just so that I didn't get periods, I'm sure if there would have been a way to change sex and stop the pain my teen brain would have gone for it... I was not attracted to the same sex nor was I suffering from body dysmorphia I was just a teen who hated going through hell every two weeks! I'm so glad that my late mum didn't have the option of putting me on puberty blockers because then I wouldn't have met and married my late husband nor had 2 beautiful kids and grandsons.

PriOn1 · 08/11/2023 05:06

NotMyCircusAnymore · 07/11/2023 23:29

But how does saying that we don't agree with mixed spaces, women's refuges, toilets etc actually harms a trans person? A trans person isn't harmed by using the loo for their birth sex. Or if they prefer, they can campaign for a third space or a gender neutral one?

a trans child isn't harmed by parents waiting until they older for allowing them to have surgery.

a trans boy isn't harmed by being told they have to wear trousers instead of a skirt at school. They don't like it. No, and yes it seems unfair considering girls can wear either , but it won't harm them. It's just unfair and annoying.

A trans girl isn't harmed by being told she can't wear a binder until she is older . She will wait and get on with her life in the meantime and if she still wants one when she is older she can have one. Or maybe find a doctor to help her transition.

Bigotry goes both ways. What about that vicar in Yorkshire a few months back when the bank dropped him for saying he didn't think banks needed rainbow flags? What about his beliefs? Isn't this a free country ?

Disagreeing with an ideology is free speech. I am friends with people of different political backgrounds, some are trans, some are lesbian, some are terfs, some don't care. we rub along ok. Because at the end of the day we can agree to disagree.

You have your terminology the wrong way round. A “trans boy” is a girl who claims she’s a boy. She might wear a binder and want a mastectomy.

A “trans girl” is a boy who claims he’s a girl.

Sueveneers · 08/11/2023 06:58

Gifgirl · 07/11/2023 10:44

Probably best to give someone a chance to reply to a post before accusing them of ignoring you.

Really sorry to hear of your traumas. I am in the same position; I was sexually and physically abused by my Dad and my cousin.

Whilst I COMPLETELY agree that we need to find a solution regarding shared spaces, I cannot get on board with trans hate. They are people too. And not all of them are out to hurt us.

Women wanting HUMAN RIGHTS is not 'trans hate'. I have not seen any 'hate'. Just women enforcing our boundaries and sex-based NEEDS and RIGHTS.

And people can get to fuck with this 'Be Kind' bullshit, which always means women be kind, at the expense of our needs and rights. Fuck that! 'Be Kind' is why women are in the situation we are in. And it's always women who need to Be Kind. Never men. So just enough now already with the women Be Kind bullshit! ENOUGH.

MPY24 · 08/11/2023 07:18

Gifgirl · 07/11/2023 10:44

Probably best to give someone a chance to reply to a post before accusing them of ignoring you.

Really sorry to hear of your traumas. I am in the same position; I was sexually and physically abused by my Dad and my cousin.

Whilst I COMPLETELY agree that we need to find a solution regarding shared spaces, I cannot get on board with trans hate. They are people too. And not all of them are out to hurt us.

Not all men are out to hurt women either. But we still separate based on the fact some are and will. My partner wouldn't hurt any woman ever. Can he come in the women's loo and changing room etc?

Sueveneers · 08/11/2023 07:33

Prelapsarianhag · 07/11/2023 11:04

Agree with you OP. There is a lot of transphobia on mumsnet. Fortunately most younger women are much more accepting of diversity - many would not join mumsnet because of its tolerance of transphobia.

@Prelapsarianhag What do you define 'transphobia' as? Because it seems to be any woman having human rights is 'transphobia'. Maybe you and others have femphobia? Rape survivors needing single-sex spaces is not 'transphobia'. Acknowledging no one can change sex, and that sex is real and immutable, is not 'transphobia'. Acknowledging that women are oppressed based on sex, and not 'gender identity', is not 'transphobia'. Acknowledging that all human rights and safeguarding women have is based on our sex class, is not 'transphobia'. Diversity means accepting many views, not just one. If you attack vulnerable women as 'transphobic', despite our needs, you're intolerance, not accepting of diversity.

Thankfully it's a minority of younger girls that are caught up in the religion of Gender Ideology, women elders that have seen it all, gone before us and fought for our rights because we know the realities of what men are like, are making headway into the Gender Ideology religion and bringing vulnerable and impressionable, and lacking in experience, girls back into reality. Women are winning this war and the Gender Ideologists and men are getting increasingly desperate as they sense defeat. Thankfully views like yours will soon be seen as the regressive, hateful, misogynistic and harmful views they are.

Helleofabore · 08/11/2023 08:03

SmokeyToo · 08/11/2023 01:49

@Codlingmoths We Aussies are everywhere, eh? Lol!

Thankfully, I was never under Clover's 'dictatorship'. I was very close (geographically) to the city, but on the north side. Nowadays, I'm up in wine country. But I seriously cannot understand how Clover gets away with what she does! And the fact that she keeps getting re-elected. But she's getting on a bit now and has mumbled about 'passing the batton' - which probably means the electorate will get someone worse!

I left Sydney three years ago for the country life and I've never looked back. The deplorable traffic and general attitude of Sydneysiders these days makes it a horrible place to live. Fine if your young, but I backed out at 50 for a quieter life. Besides, they ruined any fun whatsoever with their draconian laws on nightlife, live entertainment etc. How I miss the heady days of Oxford Street in the 90s!

Oh yay! More of us on MN!!

Whereas you moved to HV (I am supposing), we moved to the ‘huge smoke’ of London. And we lived ‘north’ of Clover’s jurisdiction too.

I am horrified that so much harm has been done in Australia with so much uncertainty because Julia Gillard slipped in gender into the anti-discrimination act. No one has tested it, yet Kieran Perkins referred to it as a basis for the Sports Australia decision.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4873436-australian-legislation-discussion-to-avoid-derailing-other-threads?reply=128581747

So now we also have lesbians in some states not being able to hold meetings and events that exclude men who believe they too are lesbians. And we have a continuous stream of people on MN such as OP and others who, it seems, would declare that it is the lesbians who are intolerant and lack compassion.

I see you have stressed that you are kind and compassionate and tolerant all through your post. And I am sure you are using the original meaning of the words as much you have described is what so many posters also support. However, I have learned reading on MN that these words, just like the word woman and girl and now female (yes, this too is now a word used by males to describe themselves), have been dramatically changed to now include the opposite meaning of the original intended meaning.

That the words are used by the very people to describe themselves, such as OP, who display the opposite values towards those who don’t agree with them. Which is the very opposite of kindness or tolerance or compassion. So, I now accept the supposed insults flung at me for my posts on MN, that I am ‘intolerant’, ‘unkind’ and ‘lacking compassion’. Because people like the OP make such declarations about those raising valid and researched concerns as ‘hate’.

These days posts such as the OP’s shine the light where those determined to be ‘kind’ don’t want it shone. Because then they are forced to start to discuss and understand where their attempts at silencing and scolding those who see the issues and concerns lead society. To a place that lacks high quality health care for children and adolescents who deserve better and evidence based care, and a society that lacks robust safeguarding for women and girls. Often their ‘compassion’ and ‘kindness’ excludes compassion for women and girls.

So, now if someone tells me I lack compassion because I raise concerns about children and adolescent health care, or sports for women and girls, or raise the exploitative nature of surrogacy, or that we still need single sex spaces to be single sex, I understand that they choose not to do the depth of research to think critically through these issues. And it takes a long time to do that research. Because these days you cannot quite trust the ABC or most Australian mainstream media on this topic. They often lack balance. In saying that occasionally you get gems like this:

Here, the BBC also cannot be fully trusted either and every article needs to go back to original source to understand the real story. For instance, Caster Semenya is a male athlete with a DSD yet that is not reported on the BBC despite promoting Semenya’s book- how kind is that to the women that athlete’s inclusion negatively impacted.

So, finding the facts and evaluating those does make it harder. I understand that the time is just not available to others. It is the attitude of those who react with the hyperbole that the OP and others do though that shows perhaps the ‘ignorance’ is not quite the direction they are pointing. It is rarely ‘hate’ that causes people to disagree with people like the OP. The thread they referred to was about a sticker for a child that had a political symbol on a cute cartoon animal. Here is the link:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4937464-transpride-flag-in-childrens-stickers?page=1

It is a crazy world, Smokey, when kindness and compassion have become such misused words.

Australian legislation discussion, to avoid derailing other threads | Mumsnet

Since this has come up in a few threads, to avoid derailing them here is a new Oz-specific thread. The key document to note is the federal Sex Discr...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4873436-australian-legislation-discussion-to-avoid-derailing-other-threads?reply=128581747

littleripper · 08/11/2023 08:09

acceptance and kindness are constantly expected of WOMEN. I want acceptance and kindness from men. Acceptance that women are allowed to define themselves and kindness to give us single sex spaces.

Helleofabore · 08/11/2023 08:10

MPY24 · 08/11/2023 07:18

Not all men are out to hurt women either. But we still separate based on the fact some are and will. My partner wouldn't hurt any woman ever. Can he come in the women's loo and changing room etc?

They don’t quite think their words through. They never quite extrapolate the concept out to see the wider picture.

It is like the ridiculous ‘most families have a mixed sex toilet at home, why are all complaining about sharing toilets with male people’.

Yes. The reality is most male people will not attack women and girls in a space, but they are ALL kept out because of the ones who are not safe.

And not one person on MN across many threads now has ever produced one shred of peer reviewed evidence that a male with a trans identity has a lower risk of committing a sex offence than the rest of the UK male population. Not one poster! Yet we are constantly told that this special group should be allowed into female single sex spaces by people claiming to be ‘kind’, ‘tolerant’ and ‘compassionate’.

Sueveneers · 08/11/2023 08:15

SmokeyToo · 08/11/2023 01:49

@Codlingmoths We Aussies are everywhere, eh? Lol!

Thankfully, I was never under Clover's 'dictatorship'. I was very close (geographically) to the city, but on the north side. Nowadays, I'm up in wine country. But I seriously cannot understand how Clover gets away with what she does! And the fact that she keeps getting re-elected. But she's getting on a bit now and has mumbled about 'passing the batton' - which probably means the electorate will get someone worse!

I left Sydney three years ago for the country life and I've never looked back. The deplorable traffic and general attitude of Sydneysiders these days makes it a horrible place to live. Fine if your young, but I backed out at 50 for a quieter life. Besides, they ruined any fun whatsoever with their draconian laws on nightlife, live entertainment etc. How I miss the heady days of Oxford Street in the 90s!

Another fellow Aussie here. I am disheartened at what is happening, even in the Victorian Liberal party with Moira, and I'm a Labor voter and member.

Merrymouse · 08/11/2023 08:23

I chose you are being unreasonable because I think you are over simplifying things. Leaving aside trans vs women’s rights issues (plenty of people have explained this), MH and addiction issues are complicated. There are various reasons why it might be necessary to exclude somebody from the family home.

I think the thing you miss is that there isn’t a neat way to be compassionate/kind to everyone when people’s needs and wishes conflict. This touches a nerve because ‘just be kind’ is often used a a simple formula to silence women.

MattDillonsEyebrows · 08/11/2023 08:25

AtrociousCircumstance · 07/11/2023 22:53

@MattDillonsEyebrows Is she on instagram? I’m not on TikTok and wondered if I could find her on insta but I haven’t located her.

I‘M not sure if she’s on Instagram or not, she’s had a few accounts banned in TikTok for telling facts, I think she’s on Alison.no.5 but number 4 was reinstated! She might be on YouTube, but I’ve not looked.

For anyone reading this who hasn’t scrolled up, there’s a woman on TikTok called Alison who is very similar in presenting style to Magdalene. She credits Magdalene for the GC views and is very no nonsense, matter of fact and pretty great.

SmokeyToo · 08/11/2023 09:07

Helleofabore · 08/11/2023 08:03

Oh yay! More of us on MN!!

Whereas you moved to HV (I am supposing), we moved to the ‘huge smoke’ of London. And we lived ‘north’ of Clover’s jurisdiction too.

I am horrified that so much harm has been done in Australia with so much uncertainty because Julia Gillard slipped in gender into the anti-discrimination act. No one has tested it, yet Kieran Perkins referred to it as a basis for the Sports Australia decision.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4873436-australian-legislation-discussion-to-avoid-derailing-other-threads?reply=128581747

So now we also have lesbians in some states not being able to hold meetings and events that exclude men who believe they too are lesbians. And we have a continuous stream of people on MN such as OP and others who, it seems, would declare that it is the lesbians who are intolerant and lack compassion.

I see you have stressed that you are kind and compassionate and tolerant all through your post. And I am sure you are using the original meaning of the words as much you have described is what so many posters also support. However, I have learned reading on MN that these words, just like the word woman and girl and now female (yes, this too is now a word used by males to describe themselves), have been dramatically changed to now include the opposite meaning of the original intended meaning.

That the words are used by the very people to describe themselves, such as OP, who display the opposite values towards those who don’t agree with them. Which is the very opposite of kindness or tolerance or compassion. So, I now accept the supposed insults flung at me for my posts on MN, that I am ‘intolerant’, ‘unkind’ and ‘lacking compassion’. Because people like the OP make such declarations about those raising valid and researched concerns as ‘hate’.

These days posts such as the OP’s shine the light where those determined to be ‘kind’ don’t want it shone. Because then they are forced to start to discuss and understand where their attempts at silencing and scolding those who see the issues and concerns lead society. To a place that lacks high quality health care for children and adolescents who deserve better and evidence based care, and a society that lacks robust safeguarding for women and girls. Often their ‘compassion’ and ‘kindness’ excludes compassion for women and girls.

So, now if someone tells me I lack compassion because I raise concerns about children and adolescent health care, or sports for women and girls, or raise the exploitative nature of surrogacy, or that we still need single sex spaces to be single sex, I understand that they choose not to do the depth of research to think critically through these issues. And it takes a long time to do that research. Because these days you cannot quite trust the ABC or most Australian mainstream media on this topic. They often lack balance. In saying that occasionally you get gems like this:

Here, the BBC also cannot be fully trusted either and every article needs to go back to original source to understand the real story. For instance, Caster Semenya is a male athlete with a DSD yet that is not reported on the BBC despite promoting Semenya’s book- how kind is that to the women that athlete’s inclusion negatively impacted.

So, finding the facts and evaluating those does make it harder. I understand that the time is just not available to others. It is the attitude of those who react with the hyperbole that the OP and others do though that shows perhaps the ‘ignorance’ is not quite the direction they are pointing. It is rarely ‘hate’ that causes people to disagree with people like the OP. The thread they referred to was about a sticker for a child that had a political symbol on a cute cartoon animal. Here is the link:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4937464-transpride-flag-in-childrens-stickers?page=1

It is a crazy world, Smokey, when kindness and compassion have become such misused words.

@Helleofabore Thank you for putting together such a comprehensive and thoughtful reply - I really do appreciate it. I haven't investigated the links just yet, but I definitely will.

You are so correct about 'kindness, tolerance, compassion' etc. becoming weaponised words. I think that if I was younger, I'd probably be affected a lot more if I were accused of NOT being any of these things. But I guess I've reached the age where I think what I think, I believe what I believe and, although I am always willing to listen to and debate other's opinions, I can now agree to disagree. Or the opposite.

When I was in my late teens and 20s, 30s etc., gay and lesbian rights were something I was REALLY passionate about. I marched in the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, defended their rights with all that I had. I still do, but as my gay and lesbian friends say, most of that fight for rights and acceptance is now over - they won. It kind of amuses me that the current activists don't seem to give a thought to the struggles that their predecessors fought. I don't want to put anyone down and say those were much more important struggles, but they really were! Gay men were getting bashed on the streets and murdered back then, just because they were gay. There was a whole series of murders in the 80s (bashing gay men and throwing them off coastal cliffs) in Sydney! Gay and lesbian people had no civil rights, they couldn't marry or be recognised as their partner's life partner. It was a very dangerous time to be homosexual and they fought long and hard - through a great deal of danger - to get these rights and laws. I'm sorry, but people getting pissy because someone calls them him or her when they prefer "they" doesn't really cut it in my book.

I don't care what people want to call themselves or what they identify as, although I still believe there are only two genders. But if a guy wants to wear a dress and heels and call himself a lady, that's fine by me. More power to you! But when that starts impinging on the rights of those born female, it's game over as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to be in a public changeroom and have some guy with his dick out in front of me - that's just wrong. And when it comes to children's rights to also not be exposed to that, I'm way invested. It just shouldn't happen! Women and children have a right to be able to comfortably go about their business without some guy's dick in their face. It's both inappropriate at best and dangerous at worst.

As for natural born males competing in women's sports teams, it's unforgivable. Nothing short of that. To hear about talented sportswomen all over the world giving up on their dreams because some teenage guy decided he's a girl and therefore equal to women is an absolute travesty! I am particularly affected by what female swimmers have been going through. Not only do they have no hope of beating biological males because they're simply not as strong and don't have the same muscle mass, they are told to use the same change rooms as these trans men! I read about one swimmer saying it takes them a good 15 minutes to wriggle themselves into competition swimwear and how humiliating and threatening it was to have to do it in front of a guy with a penis. That broke my heart - why on God's green earth can this be allowed to happen to women??

I have done nowhere near the research you've done, but I read and watch a lot. And frankly, I'm disgusted by what's happening to women. Women that have fought for basic rights for literally centuries! It seems that, at the silly whims of some men, all of our fights have gone out the window. It's not right, it's not fair and nobody can convince me otherwise.

Yep, I'm in the beautiful HV! How are you finding London? Do you miss the weather here? I have a couple of relatives who live there now and they both have to be treated for Seasonal Depressive Disorder. As much as I bitch about the heat here, I think I'd miss it if it was gone. I lived in North America for a couple of years, so I know all about surviving frigid winters! As wonderful as my time away was, I was happy to come home to good old, backward Australia.

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. 😊

SmokeyToo · 08/11/2023 09:20

Sueveneers · 08/11/2023 08:15

Another fellow Aussie here. I am disheartened at what is happening, even in the Victorian Liberal party with Moira, and I'm a Labor voter and member.

I so agree, @Sueveneers. What happened to Moira Deeming was horrendous! Same with the British lady (whose name escapes me!) who came down here to speak about women's rights. The one whose event got hijacked by that idiot Lidia Thorpe.

All my life I've been happy to be a girl/woman. I'm so grateful to the women before me who fought the fight so that I have the rights that I have today. But those rights are being eroded now and it's really distressing!

Helleofabore · 08/11/2023 09:52

SmokeyToo · 08/11/2023 09:07

@Helleofabore Thank you for putting together such a comprehensive and thoughtful reply - I really do appreciate it. I haven't investigated the links just yet, but I definitely will.

You are so correct about 'kindness, tolerance, compassion' etc. becoming weaponised words. I think that if I was younger, I'd probably be affected a lot more if I were accused of NOT being any of these things. But I guess I've reached the age where I think what I think, I believe what I believe and, although I am always willing to listen to and debate other's opinions, I can now agree to disagree. Or the opposite.

When I was in my late teens and 20s, 30s etc., gay and lesbian rights were something I was REALLY passionate about. I marched in the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, defended their rights with all that I had. I still do, but as my gay and lesbian friends say, most of that fight for rights and acceptance is now over - they won. It kind of amuses me that the current activists don't seem to give a thought to the struggles that their predecessors fought. I don't want to put anyone down and say those were much more important struggles, but they really were! Gay men were getting bashed on the streets and murdered back then, just because they were gay. There was a whole series of murders in the 80s (bashing gay men and throwing them off coastal cliffs) in Sydney! Gay and lesbian people had no civil rights, they couldn't marry or be recognised as their partner's life partner. It was a very dangerous time to be homosexual and they fought long and hard - through a great deal of danger - to get these rights and laws. I'm sorry, but people getting pissy because someone calls them him or her when they prefer "they" doesn't really cut it in my book.

I don't care what people want to call themselves or what they identify as, although I still believe there are only two genders. But if a guy wants to wear a dress and heels and call himself a lady, that's fine by me. More power to you! But when that starts impinging on the rights of those born female, it's game over as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to be in a public changeroom and have some guy with his dick out in front of me - that's just wrong. And when it comes to children's rights to also not be exposed to that, I'm way invested. It just shouldn't happen! Women and children have a right to be able to comfortably go about their business without some guy's dick in their face. It's both inappropriate at best and dangerous at worst.

As for natural born males competing in women's sports teams, it's unforgivable. Nothing short of that. To hear about talented sportswomen all over the world giving up on their dreams because some teenage guy decided he's a girl and therefore equal to women is an absolute travesty! I am particularly affected by what female swimmers have been going through. Not only do they have no hope of beating biological males because they're simply not as strong and don't have the same muscle mass, they are told to use the same change rooms as these trans men! I read about one swimmer saying it takes them a good 15 minutes to wriggle themselves into competition swimwear and how humiliating and threatening it was to have to do it in front of a guy with a penis. That broke my heart - why on God's green earth can this be allowed to happen to women??

I have done nowhere near the research you've done, but I read and watch a lot. And frankly, I'm disgusted by what's happening to women. Women that have fought for basic rights for literally centuries! It seems that, at the silly whims of some men, all of our fights have gone out the window. It's not right, it's not fair and nobody can convince me otherwise.

Yep, I'm in the beautiful HV! How are you finding London? Do you miss the weather here? I have a couple of relatives who live there now and they both have to be treated for Seasonal Depressive Disorder. As much as I bitch about the heat here, I think I'd miss it if it was gone. I lived in North America for a couple of years, so I know all about surviving frigid winters! As wonderful as my time away was, I was happy to come home to good old, backward Australia.

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. 😊

No worries. I hope you don’t think I am nit picking but I think you meant either male transperson or transwoman when discussing swimming. Is that correct? Trans ‘men’ are female people and, unless they take testosterone, are free to compete in female sports. I am thinking you are referring to Lia Thomas and the fact that the female swimmers needed 30-45 minutes to get into their compression suits. It was either Paula Scanlon or Riley Gaines or one of the other brave women who said this in their declaration to one of the committees.

but here is Paula discussing the impact of having a male in her locker room:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12471635/amp/Paula-Scanlan-attacks-Democratic-trans-rights.html

If you are interested, there is a thread on the feminist board that was sectioned off to discuss all ‘sex and gender issues’ that is a useful one for links that might be useful to start with. It is a long running thread that has been used to stash research links but the first half is also interesting to read for background too.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0

The important thing to know is that you are not alone thinking something is not quite as being described. That feminist board is full of women, some from Australia, who are full of the same questions as the rest of us. And we are always up for learning and gaining better understanding of what is happening and why.

And thanks for asking, I love the weather over here. I don’t find it much different weather wise to when I lived in Canberra for a few years, but wetter. And growing up surrounded by constant drought in other parts of Oz, I love the green! I know the HV quite well. I miss people but not places at this time iykwim.

Paula Scanlan slams Democratics for putting 'trans rights' above fears

In a scathing opinion piece, Scanlan, 23, shared her frustration and concerns around transgender athletes entering woman-only spaces.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12471635/amp/Paula-Scanlan-attacks-Democratic-trans-rights.html

JamSandle · 08/11/2023 09:54

Prelapsarianhag · 07/11/2023 11:04

Agree with you OP. There is a lot of transphobia on mumsnet. Fortunately most younger women are much more accepting of diversity - many would not join mumsnet because of its tolerance of transphobia.

It's not a phobia.

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