Making DD do housework

[AIBUmum2023]

So my DD disengaged from education at 16. The country we live in has mandatory education up to 18, and there was a lot of active input to try to get her back to school. My GP said to me that I need to make it so that either education or employment is better than being at home!

Right now, she can’t keep her bedroom tidy, we live in a relatively new house and she’s had mould growing on the (internal) walls and the inside of the windows (which I had to clean as she refused and at the end of the day, it’s my house that is being ruined). She doesn’t put rubbish in the bin, she doesn’t put clothes in for washing, she never changes her bed sheets, she doesn’t brush her teeth, she doesn’t shower. She says she can’t get a job or do a college course because she has anxiety, for which she is medicated, when she bothers to take the medication and she literally spends all day (and night) in her room, watching films, chatting to her friends or trying on outfits and doing make up.

A couple of months ago, I told her that I would take her devices away until her room was clean and she snuck out of the house, sent a text that she was in a “safe” place, said she didn’t feel safe at home and went off for a week, where we didn’t know where she was, so we left her to her own devices. She returned home, said that she owned her devices and that if we took them off her, then she would call the police as that’s theft. To which I said that we (her dad and I) paid for her SIM card, bought her the phone and laptop, paid for everything for her, including her clothes and the broadband she uses, and should we be calling the police for her essentially stealing our SIM card and broadband? I said this to show her how ridiculous she was being.

Since then, I’ve managed to get her to change her bed sheets once, help me change my bed and launder my bedlinens twice and she’s also done her brother’s bedding once (he works a 40 hour week, which would be 42.5 hours but he gets a 30 minute meal break, and he works shifts. He also pays keep, as we pay for everything for him, except his smokes and clothes). She averages once a week for vacuuming common areas and mopping floors. Twice a month for cleaning her bathroom. The only thing I absolutely insist she does is hanging out the washing to dry, emptying and refilling the dishwasher, feeding the cats twice a day, and cleaning the litter boxes.

Last week, she said she was going to stay the night with her friend - she came back late Monday night after a week away. She then asked why neither DH or I had contacted her and DH said that we had been here and she should have contacted us to let us know she was staying away so long. She did phone me on her way home, saying she had missed me and could I collect her from the train station! DH went.

She can’t cook, even though I try to get her to help me in the kitchen and she says that she has an eating disorder, which the psychologist she has started seeing for her anxiety, told her that she has. A couple of years ago, she was seeing a counsellor about her refusal to go to school, and at that time, she came home saying that the counsellor (who isn’t allowed to diagnose anything due to only having a 1 year certificate from college) said that she had PTSD and ADHD (which she has never been diagnosed with, and that no one else has said either). She is having an assessment done to see if she has an eating disorder.

She has gone through a stage where she refused to eat with the family, but then I caught her eating late at night (think 2 am) and also eating lots of junk food (getting her friends to order her Uber eats in the middle of the night), but she will tell the GP, for example, that she doesn’t eat as she’s not hungry, and has no appetite.

There is no bullying or anything in her past, in fact she was a very popular girl with lots of friends and she did very well at school, although to hear her now, she can’t add up 2+2, doesn’t know how many grams in kilo, etc., etc., and I told DH that I think she has weaponised incompetence because things she could perfectly well, she will now say that she can’t do, and never has been able to do.

Anyway, this morning (Tuesday, I’m a lot ahead of the UK), she comes and says to me that she thought that everything would fall apart without her here as she’s the glue that holds the family and house together. To which I just stared at her, in disbelief and shook my head!

Both DH and I have refused to give her money, or buy clothes, makeup, hair dye etc., for her, and we’ve said she either goes back to her job (which was a casual job but she was being trained in lots of different areas, such as cashing up, etc., and didn’t have to restock shelves or anything like that, so not strenuous), finds another full time job, or goes back to education and gets a qualification (if you drop out of school before the end of the school year where you turn 18, you don’t get a qualification at all).

So, my dear fellow parents, am I being unreasonable with my demands of daily dishwashing emptying/refilling, laundry hanging out and bringing in, and cat care?

@tpxqi Not saying it's the case here, but trauma can lead to a lack of self care, including washing / cleaning

@VORE

I think we’re normal parents as our other kids aren’t like this.

She is expected to get up by 8 am , with bed made, and not go back to bed, but this is complicated by the fact that I will often nap in the day as I have difficulties that impact my sleep and then she will go back to bed/sit in her room doing whatever she does.

Her curfew was 6pm, until she turned 18 and now it’s 9pm, which isn’t a massive concession, as everything closes at 9pm anyway! She also wasn’t allowed to go to sleepovers, unless I knew both parents really, really well.

She has always been in proper therapy and these assessments spring from whatever she’s saying in her therapy sessions, hence this ED assessment now, even though neither her dad or I see any evidence of an ED, and her weight is stable.

I’m going to talk to my husband about the points you raise as I think it’s helpful as you’ve been that kid.

I also want to say that I think it’s awful that your parents showed the world how much they loved you by buying you things, but showed you that they didn’t by not putting boundaries in place. You have made a success of your life in spite of them, not because of them, and you need to always remember that. And you have been successful, regardless of material things, or jobs, or anything else. You’ve taken the time to help a complete stranger, and that means a lot to me 🌺

This term 'trauma' gets banded around. Tik tok is full of it. Trauma sometimes means 'my parents made me tidy my bedroom instead of letting me fester all day'

@Gloriously

I don’t think you’ve read my posts properly.

DD has most definitely not been diagnosed with an eating disorder, she said something to her psychologist and now is going to have an ED assessment done.

Similarly, when she said something that made her counsellor suspect PTSD and then ADHD, she had assessments done and she had neither. She also doesn’t have ASD. All these assessments have been undertaken due to things she has said to the first counsellor she saw and now to her current psychologist.

I have never “deflected and projected” her mental health issues, I have taken time off work to take her to countless specialists, and paid for them. Every time she goes to see her psychologist, it costs me 175, plus I drop her off and pick her up. So please, don’t say I’m minimising her mental health issues! I don’t understand how someone has anxiety about being around people when it comes to work, but can then go out and be around people for leisure activities like concerts, comic con, etc., and I will never understand that. Family friends that she’s known for years will come round and she won’t even come out of her room to say hello, because of anxiety, and she seems to use anxiety as an excuse to get out of doing things that she doesn’t want to.

If you perhaps had read properly, I have never put her bed in the dining room, that was a completely different poster!

I am not moving her to a garden shed! I was perhaps being flippant! It’s up to building code standards and is basically a one room structure that is fully insulated, got electricity, aircon, etc. It’s a proper building, just a one room one!

My disability is of a somewhat recent nature. It only impacted her in terms of helping me to make my bed!

Your assessment about my lack of love, tenderness and compassion would make anyone who knows me in real life howl with laughter, including her! I probably am across harshly because I’m offloading a bit really.

I didn’t ask for assessments to be undertaken on my parenting style, I asked if I was unreasonable expecting her to do some housework.

It was my GP (who is also her GP), who suggested that I make “being at home more unpleasant than being in education or work”, as per my original post. A previous poster has also seconded the tough love approach.

Oh, and the laundry? Yeah that’s done as a family because we are a family. So everyone’s towels go in together, ditto face cloths, bath mats, etc. The only things that are washed according to whose they are, are the bed linens. Because we have assigned days for washing our bedding as each bed gets washed twice per week (although DD rarely does hers, and DS sometimes doesn’t bother with the second wash of the week, so his gets done weekly). I don’t understand households where you’re supposed to be a family but you have to do your own washing. Seems strange to me, that all 🤷‍♀️

I think you have had crap medical advice.

Anxiety
Eating Disorder
School Refusal
Hygiene issues.

This girl is absolutely ND. She needs love and care and a low demand environment. Not being forced to change her brothers bed sheets or scrape mould off windows would be a start.

This exactly! She ran away because she didn’t feel safe because I was going to take her devices away until she cleaned her room!

Okay, again, she is most definitely not ND; in this country, the screening for ASD is very robust and includes separate assessments by specially trained experts in ASD, undertaken over several sessions, by OT’s, paediatricians, SLT’s, psychologists, and physiotherapists, as well as reports from school, and the GP.

The hygiene issues are more recent. Since she stopped working, and having money to go out so much, she stopped showering, unless she was going out. The creased, crumpled, stained clothing has always been a problem. Since childhood! I used to sneak in her room and get her school uniform for the wash! And yes, I wash everyone’s clothes, shocking I know 😉

And there has been no eating disorder assessment or diagnosis! She is the one who leads these assessments because she is the one who says who knows what to these counsellors and psychologists. It’s like a game almost to her, to see if she can get diagnosed with something!

Also, I was the one who cleaned her windows, her walls, her curtains and her clothes of the mould. I was the one who cleaned her whole room top to bottom, organising her drawers, her wardrobe, her dressing table and her desk, with her input as she sat on her bed and watched, whilst watching twitch and laughing with her friends on group chat! And making me wave to get her attention so she could mute herself so her friends didn’t know it was me cleaning her bedroom!

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow And this was at the end of August, so not years ago and within 2 days, the room was back to being a bomb site! I spent about 10 hours in total, cleaning, washing clothes, etc., and all for nothing as she doesn’t seem to care.

It's very easy when you take the DASS to end up with either a depression, stress or anxiety diagnosis as it’s 10 questions based on how you’ve felt in the preceding weeks!

Okay, again, she is most definitely not ND; in this country, the screening for ASD is very robust and includes separate assessments by specially trained experts in ASD, undertaken over several sessions, by OT’s, paediatricians, SLT’s, psychologists, and physiotherapists, as well as reports from school, and the GP.

I think saying someone is "most definitely not ND" shows a huge lack of understanding of neurodiversity. Many people slip through the cracks and go undiagnosed for large stretches of time, even if they undergo rigorous assessments. You mention the in depth screening for ASD specifically but the ND umbrella is huge.

Family friends that she’s known for years will come round and she won’t even come out of her room to say hello, because of anxiety, and she seems to use anxiety as an excuse to get out of doing things that she doesn’t want to

Another ND thing

I can’t really go into the ND too much because it would be too outing! But please, pleas, believe me when I say she’s isn’t on any spectrum. And yes, I can categorically state this. I’ve name changed so it’s not me (iykwim), but you, and other posters, will have to take my word for this. If she was ND, it would be easier to know how to parent, but that style has been tried as well and got nowhere. And I mentioned ASD specifically in answer to ASD specifically.

Family friends that she’s known for years will come round and she won’t even come out of her room to say hello, because of anxiety, and she seems to use anxiety as an excuse to get out of doing things that she doesn’t want to

Or maybe there are things she doesn't want to do because she is anxious. You're framing it as an 'excuse' when it could just be a 'reason', a much less loaded word. That's not to say she shouldn't / can't work on these things but you're dismissive of what may well be a very valid reason for struggling with certain things / situations.

In answer to your initial question, I don't think you are BU to expect her to do a fair share of household chores. I don't think she should have to take responsibility for her brother's laundry, but otherwise, what you're asking her to do is entirely reasonable.

And I know that you didn't ask for opinions on your parenting style or the wider issues, but I do feel compelled to comment. Ignore it if you wish, but it is genuinely meant in the spirit of being helpful.

I think you sound very dismissive of your dd's issuet. It comes across as if you think that there isn't really anything wrong with her, so she needs to just pull herself together.

I accept that she might not have had any formal diagnosis, and this might be frustrating, but the fact is that there is clearly something very wrong with your dd's mental health. From what you describe, she has gone from being a happy, engaged and successful young woman to being an anxious, withdrawn and disengaged one. I'm pretty sure that she would not choose to live like this if something wasn't wrong. At her age, she should be out and about making the most of what life has to offer. There is a reason why she has stopped living a full life, whether you have a label/diagnosis to stick on that reason or not.

You sound disappointed in her and frustrated with her. No matter how hard you try, this is probably coming across. The thing is, she is probably disappointed and frustrated with herself. She needs help, not judgement. And yes, I know you've paid for therapy etc so you're trying. And it must be very hard if you're also coming to terms with your own disability, which you said is a recent development. You have a lot on your plate, and I sympathise. But your dd is clearly very unhappy and you don't need a doctor to diagnose this. If she could flip a switch and suddenly be happy again, I'm sure that she would choose that option.

@AIBUmum2023 thanks for the kind words!

Yes has absolutely no boundaries, would disappear for days on end with no one questioning where I was, no actual interest was ever shown in my schooling (until I failed), no one would even make sure I had gotten up to go to school, I had lots of completely inappropriate much older boyfriends (looking for love anywhere I could find it) that my parents let me do whatever whenever with and never thought I might need protecting from.

and then they were completely shocked and appalled when I failed school because I had been ‘generously’ given all this lovely freedom and all these material things. Even though they had done sweet FA to actually parent me the entire time. I just had money thrown at me as a way of dealing with me.

So it was a big old shock when suddenly they swung the complete other way and started to suddenly parent me very strictly at the age of 17. And however 💩 of a job I think they did in general, I am grateful for the fact they came down so hard on me in a time in my life where I really could have gone completely off the rails and my life could have gone in a very different direction.

I went to university, got a good degree which has meant I’ve got a very good career now which pays for all the therapy I need to get over having parents like them 😂

And I can also say that looking back at that time I was also incredibly entitled and spoilt and can only imagine how much worse teenagers can be nowadays with the advent of tiktok etc justifying everything as ‘trauma’ and a ‘mental health issue’ (and I say this as someone with a boat load of MH issues and trauma 😂.)

You know, if you look for ND, you’ll find it everywhere! I can’t remember who said it, but someone said something along the lines of “we are all on the spectrum somewhere”.

However, sometimes, a snail is just a snail, not a snake in disguise!

My DD is extremely intelligent (oh look, another ND thing!). She has managed to make counsellors and psychologists believe that she has all sorts of things, that under assessment and testing, she doesn’t have. She describes perfectly “symptoms” that she has that match PTSD, or ADHD, etc., but she doesn’t have these things, unless of course, you’re suggesting that the testing for all conditions isn’t strong enough and so she has “slipped through the cracks” for everything?

I have sat and watched DD manipulate people! It’s quite awesome and awe-inspiring actually. This is why part of me doesn’t believe the anxiety thing, because she only uses to her benefit, when she doesn’t want to do something!

She used to hide in the toilet, literally an hour in the toilet at a time, multiple times per day, so I told I was going to ask the GP to refer her for investigations as it wasn’t normal. She actually admitted that she just used to go in the toilet to get out of doing things and she just watched twitch steamers on her phone or talked to her friends!

Left to her own devices, to do whatever she wants, she never has anxiety. Both DH and I have tested this, and it works. As long as we don’t ask her to do anything, she’s anxiety free, happy, eats well, and does whatever she wants. After a few days, we might ask her to bring her rubbish out of her room as it’s bin day the next day and she can’t look for the rubbish in her room as she’s anxious. Or she can’t feed the cats because she’s anxious. Or whatever we’ve asked of her. Anxiety.

So you might believe that every psychiatrist, psychologist, paediatrician and specialist she’s seen isn’t up to snuff and doesn’t know anything, but since she’s seen more than one of each type, and I find it hard to believe they’re all rubbish, I think I’ll let the qualified and registered (according to you, useless and rubbish) experts do the diagnosing for now.

YABVU getting her to clean her BROTHER’S room, he needs to be responsible for that!

But why do you think she would try to manipulate everyone into thinking that she's mentally unwell. Just to get out of doing stuff that she doesn't want to do? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Her life sounds pretty miserable and empty. Why would a healthy young woman choose to live like that?

Thank you for your words, they made me want to cry. It was after the Covid lockdown at the beginning of 2020 that she didn’t want to go to school. I think it was because school gave the option to stay at home or go in person, and DD preferred to stay at home. And then it was as if she found being at home easier and didn’t even want to go for walks, only going out to meet up with friends. Then it was not doing schoolwork because she was up all night talking to friends and watching streamers. And then because of the all nighters, she started refusing to go to school, and then the education department became involved and we had to take her for counselling, which led to CAHMS, which led to nothing, but back to refusing to go to school, which became a big battle field and nothing seemed to help, and now we’re here. And I am frustrated, not just with her, but myself, my body is literally giving up on me, I won’t live to see retirement and I’ll be lucky to see 60. I’m frustrated with the situation really. It’s not really about her room, or her not wanting to help out, it’s a lot more for me. But if, and I know it’s a big IF, I can do something, anything, to help her, I will do it. Vore gave me some good advice and I think I’ll talk to my DH about the strategies she suggested as she’s been through it, though for different reasons and she was my DD once upon a time. Also, I’ve always been a parent who’s been able to help my kids and see them through things but nothing seems to work with her. So, here we are.

Its been proven that teenagers cannot process consequences the same way as adults do and do not possess the ability to empathise in the same way adults do. They don’t actually develop the ability to empathise properly until they are 25.

Teenagers by nature are incredibly self centred and don’t have the emotional maturity needed to process feelings outside of ‘I don’t want to do this so I am going to say/do this thing so I can get out of it’ regardless of whether it is the right or wrong thing to do. All they care about is what serves them at that moment. And yes I can 10000% see myself using MH issues as a way of getting out of things I didn’t want to do as a teenager and yes I lived in squalor as a teenager because I could - because at the time it did not serve me in anyway to not.

She has never cleaned her brothers room! She washed his bedsheets once, as it was his day and he works long shifts and is out of the house for ~13 hours so she literally put his bedlinens in the machine, hung them out to dry, and remade his bed. The most cleaning she does for any member of the house is vacuuming and mopping the communal areas.

Please read the replies from @VORE as she has a lot of insight into the teenage mind and how my DD might be processing things!

Well yes, you are. It was a year before we moved the bed. And when she left, she was fine, she just didn't think any of her failed jobs "good enough for her" - she first just went into an ordinary city owned flat. It wasn't the UK, and in that country they will literally leave you alone and hand you unemployment benefits and just let you find work yourself. It was only after a year when they put slight pressure on the job finding game that she began to say she was too anxious and from there they put her in supported housing.

I know my kid. Her anxiety was increased by her disengaging with things like school/work/society in favour of being online for the entire day on game websites. But she's riding this life now, 12 years and counting, and despite a decade of counselling, the only thing she does is "talk" about going back to education. It's too easy to sit back and let others support her.

I'm sorry, OP. It sounds very hard and I understand the frustration completely. It must be incredibly difficult to deal with this on top of all of your anxieties and fears in relation to your own health. I feel for you.

I think lockdown was very damaging for a lot of kids. It sounds like your dd went into some kind of downward spiral from there, and she has somehow got stuck and can't get herself out. She might be manipulative at times, but I honestly don't think she is simply manipulating you though to get out of doing stuff that she doesn't want to do. She clearly had dreams and aspirations before - what has happened to those? I suspect that she is deeply unhappy with how things are working out and that her self esteem is at rock bottom, but just doesn't know how to get herself out of it. I wouldn't underestimate the impact on her of your health issues, either... they might be affecting her more than you realise.

I think one of the hardest things that we deal with as parents as our kids get older is that we find that we can no longer "fix" things for them when they go wrong. It's so easy when they're little! But now, while you can help and support your dd as much as you possibly can, it might be that you won't actually be able to do anything to get her out of her current slump... she might have to do it for herself. Perhaps you actually need to let yourself off the hook a bit and to accept that you haven't got all the answers... and that's OK?

This is my DD! Watching streamers, playing minecraft, SIMS, chatting with friends and only wanting to go out to meet up with friends! She has said that our house is her “safe” space, but then has gone out and not come home for days and not letting us know she’s safe! But she doesn’t have boyfriends or anything and I know that she’s been where she’s said she’s been. But I don’t want it to become a situation where she’s living in housing on benefits. I’m actually unsure of whether she could even get benefits!

Fair enough. This is nothing like the emotionally healthy teens that I know, so I don't agree with the blanket way in which you have phrased this post, but I accept that some kids might function in this way.