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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not pay school attendance fine?

447 replies

NameChanged456716 · 06/11/2023 13:38

And what happens if I don’t. There is no statutory right to appeal.

i submitted an ‘exceptional leave request’ first week of September, requesting 5 days leave for my 6YO and 8YO daughters. We are in India this week participating in Diwali and the religious functions that lead up to it. It’s not the same in our area the U.K. and we wanted the kids to fully experience their cultural traditions at an age where they wouldn’t miss too much at school, with family and friends that live in India.

the head was meant to respond to let us know whether or not the absence would be authorised and give reasons. We didn’t hear anything and then chased up a few weeks before half term, but no response.

today we got the standard ‘why have your kids not in school email’, which I responded to and finally got confirmation that the absence has not been agreed and so will be unauthorised. No reason given other than they see it as a family holiday.

in our area it’s an automatic fine by the LA if we take kids out for 5 days. I’m a bit annoyed at the lack of communication from the school. We can’t control that Diwali is in term time, it’s only 5 days and this is really important to us as a family.

what would happen if I don’t pay the fines (it’s more the principle that I don’t think we should have to).

in terms of missing education - kids attendance is 100% otherwise and both are greater depth so I do think this week in India is a better experience for them than any impact of missing 5 days of primary school.

OP posts:
Boiledfrogs1989 · 07/11/2023 20:41

I took my kids to Majorca in July in the last week before the kids broke up and I got a letter from the head warning me about a fine. Obviously the fine was less than taking the kids away during the holidays so we went for it.

The fine literally only came through last week, I’d forgotten about it so was a bit of a shit surprise. It says on the fine that they’ll charge you so much more if you don’t pay and it’s only extreme circumstances where you can contest.

It’s so frustrating that you can’t do anything but it’s just one of them where you’ve just got no choice! Pissed me off because it was the easy week with sports day and films that my girls missed so not really worth a fine 😂

Livelovebehappy · 07/11/2023 20:43

StephanieLampshade · 07/11/2023 20:20

It is very educational to learn about cultures, ways of living, languages and traditions.

It makes you a more informed, tolerant and pleasant person.

You should try it.

Show quote history

And this is going to be achieved by adding on an extra week to their holiday destination? I’m sure the children can pretty much learn about their culture in a way which doesn’t involve them missing a week of schooling?

H007 · 07/11/2023 20:43

YABU you knew the LA fined, you still took them out, pay the fine it’s simple. The school doesn’t really get a choice in it, and your request isn’t exceptional, Diwali happens every year. Exceptional would be wedding/funeral type thing.

DahliaJ · 07/11/2023 20:44

StressedMumOf2Girls · 07/11/2023 20:05

And while I would love for schools to give authorised absences when it comes to situations like this, I understand why they don't do it. If it's a large multicultural school, you'll have students missing every month or so because someone's got a religious holiday and is going to be absent.

Or if it's a school that has one religion as a majority, you could easily have 50% of the school absent for a few days due to a religious festival happening.

Yep, that happened in my 94% EAL school. We planned ahead though and used staff training days at these times, where possible.

DahliaJ · 07/11/2023 20:47

Please @NameChanged456716 read the DfE guidance rather than taking misinformed advice and views from here.

cansu · 07/11/2023 20:51

NameChanged456716
I saw your other post about this. You said you were already going on holiday and wanted to tag on an extra couple of days to stay and do the celebrations. It is therefore a bit much to want the whole holiday authorised as you were going anyway just for a holiday and want to also go later in the year to centre parcs and get that without a fine by staying under the five days! I think you need to accept the fine and stop whinging. You can clearly afford to pay it or you wouldn't be in India and centre parcs. You can of course decide to go on holiday but you knew the rules before you booked. Just pay up or go in the holidays instead.

cansu · 07/11/2023 20:53

SurferRona
The OP can celebrate Diwali in the UK. She isn't obliged to travel to India to do so.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/11/2023 20:56

HurkleDurkling · 07/11/2023 20:40

You knew the rules when you sent your children to a Local Authority School.
Pay the fine. The option would be Home
Ed, or a same faith school. These are the rules. Can you imagine if every child had holidays to suit external customs/religious obligation. We could have holidays at, Halloween, birthdays, pagan festivals. The teachers would be unable to teach the basics. The RC has about 10 holidays of obligation per year, the Jewish Faith will have many holidays then the Muslim will have many too. So you can see how absurd taking non scheduled holidays would be. Teaching is difficult enough. Sometimes parents need educated. I feel occasionally some parents don’t value the education system.
Just pay the fine and value the school!
They have enough to do without chasing a disruptive parent.

I posted upthread with details of the arrangements for a Hindu faith school. They wouldn't authorise it, either - they close for two days next Monday and Tuesday, Diwali and Lord Krishna's birthday, but, along with an extra day earlier in the year, they add three extra days on in July to ensure that all children still get the Statutory number of days in school.

Hippodogamus · 07/11/2023 20:58

I totally understand why you want the kids to experience Diwali in India but they go to school in the UK so you could celebrate in the UK. I’d just pay the fine.

WimbyAce · 07/11/2023 21:01

The fines are annoying but it is the same for all of us I'm afraid so you need to suck it up. At the end of the day you have taken them out of school term time for a holiday so if you have exceeded the 10? sessions then it would be expected to be fined these days. I don't agree with it across the board but I don't think you had exceptional circumstances.

Fifteenth · 07/11/2023 21:06

WimbyAce · 07/11/2023 21:01

The fines are annoying but it is the same for all of us I'm afraid so you need to suck it up. At the end of the day you have taken them out of school term time for a holiday so if you have exceeded the 10? sessions then it would be expected to be fined these days. I don't agree with it across the board but I don't think you had exceptional circumstances.

Would you say the same if Govt had taken all the food and we were all starving?

We need to resist before we suffer as other countries have done.

CarriMarie · 07/11/2023 21:07

If you're returning Monday lunchtime, is there any way of getting your children into school for the afternoon session, then they'd only have taken 4 and a half days off so no fine?

PurpleBugz · 07/11/2023 21:08

I would pay the fine. Your kids school is in the uk you should follow the term schedule. You did nothing wrong taking them to experience this however, it's your culture and religion and that's not the problem. Try to see it as a cost of the trip rather than the fine. I say this as a Christian who would take my kids out of school for Christmas and Easter and pay the fine of the holidays didn't line up.

Fifteenth · 07/11/2023 21:09

HurkleDurkling · 07/11/2023 20:40

You knew the rules when you sent your children to a Local Authority School.
Pay the fine. The option would be Home
Ed, or a same faith school. These are the rules. Can you imagine if every child had holidays to suit external customs/religious obligation. We could have holidays at, Halloween, birthdays, pagan festivals. The teachers would be unable to teach the basics. The RC has about 10 holidays of obligation per year, the Jewish Faith will have many holidays then the Muslim will have many too. So you can see how absurd taking non scheduled holidays would be. Teaching is difficult enough. Sometimes parents need educated. I feel occasionally some parents don’t value the education system.
Just pay the fine and value the school!
They have enough to do without chasing a disruptive parent.

How many can afford the alternative to a Govt school?

WimbyAce · 07/11/2023 21:10

TeenLifeMum · 07/11/2023 20:27

Our primary school would have okayed this privately but not officially and not fined us. We took dc to America to see family but had to align with when my brother and cousins’ families could all meet up. The experience my dc got of New York, Chicago and the Great Lakes with family was more valuable than the lessons in school. School felt the same thankfully. I’d say that experiencing Diwali is a part of their cultural education and really important. They could tell the class about it on their return if the teacher was really good. It’s a shame schools can’t think more about the value of such an amazing trip. It’s not like a cheap all inclusive to Greece is it?!

I’m usually really supportive of schools and the rules but I think op should be allowed to do this. Sadly, rules are rules so yes you’ll have to pay.

I think you are on rocky ground here. Just because they are citing Diwali as their reason for being awol it doesn't automatically make it a more important and valid trip than someone else's "cheap all inclusive to Greece". Rude.

ToffeeMamma · 07/11/2023 21:11

It's not actually a legal requirement to have your child in school, it's only a legal requirement to ensure they are educated the exact terminology states "You can be prosecuted if you do not give your child an education". You are allowed to home school and as long as trips are educational they should not be refused. So I'd suggest you write to the LEA disputing the charge explain the previous contact and that it was ignored. Then point out the level of education your children obtained by learning about their religion and culture in the country of their origin and ask what education the school can provide in this subject that would be better.

My neighbour took both her kids out of school for a cultural/religious trip similar to what you mention and received a fine. School ignored her trying to appeal it so she contacted LEA and confirmed what they'd learnt on the trip, LEA agreed the trip was educational and vital to the child's religious beliefs and needs. They cancelled the fine and updated school on the reasons for authorising such trips. For those who are saying you could have celebrated it here, she could have too but wanted to give them a proper experience of Thier culture and religious holiday.

Fifteenth · 07/11/2023 21:11

DailyEnergyCrisis · 07/11/2023 20:05

Schools don’t have much agency over this stuff as they themselves are pushed to the limits to get attendance up. They have to demonstrate they are complying with the structure that apparently drives attendance upwards which includes fining. I’m sure the head would rather not as it’s damaging to relationships with families but it’s not an option to turn a blind eye if there’s a “good reason” which doesn’t meet the threshold for absence they can justify authorising.

It’s tough for Heads to be the people Govt uses to administer human rights abuses. But they do have to resist.

They can’t say “I was only following orders/guidance/protocol”. That defence doesn’t work, nor should it.

Bloopadoop · 07/11/2023 21:12

I think it sucks. It feels like religious discrimination to me. It’s not your fault that your religious festival doesn’t coincide with school holidays, unlike Christians and Christmas and Easter. I suppose you just have to pay it, but it would rankle. Especially the fact the head said nothing until it was too late!

Fifteenth · 07/11/2023 21:14

Mumumumumum555 · 07/11/2023 19:56

Fines don’t normally come from the school, but from the local authority. School just reports absences and reason given and they’re usually automatically issued. Since the pandemic, the enforcement for attendance has been tightened by the government. So a lot of the leeway has gone.

If Heads are asked to administer abuses, they need to resist.

”I was just following orders” isn’t a defence.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/11/2023 21:15

Fifteenth · 07/11/2023 21:06

Would you say the same if Govt had taken all the food and we were all starving?

We need to resist before we suffer as other countries have done.

Show quote history

I didn't realise that The Revolution would start with the middleclass families demanding their right to go on expensive trips abroad in termtime.

Fifteenth · 07/11/2023 21:15

Passepartoute · 07/11/2023 18:48

It's not the school's fault, they don't impose the fines, and they have to comply with the rules when deciding whether to authorise absence.

Show quote history

Nobody should comply with rules that hurt others.

It is always the order follower’s fault.

Yes it is tough for Heads.

TeenLifeMum · 07/11/2023 21:17

@WimbyAce i think families from different cultural backgrounds introducing that to their dc is massively different to a cheap AI in Greece (and I love all inclusive holidays). We’re a multicultural country with Christianity underpinning traditional society but one that welcomes other beliefs.

Fifteenth · 07/11/2023 21:19

Soontobe60 · 07/11/2023 18:49

The problem is, the overwhelming majority of people DO think children should be in education. Which is what this is about. Those who don't have other options.

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The problem is that people can’t distinguish between

1). what they think is a good idea,
and
2). forcing others to comply.

That way lies tyranny.

Cheerily there is a significant minority on this thread who do get that.

helenbackandbeyond · 07/11/2023 21:23

Next time don't bother asking just say they are sick. Far far more educational for them to experience this than the nonsense they proport to " teach" them in school. You've been honest by asking for permission this time it's got you nowhere. Suck up the fine this time save yourself having it increased etc etc

Fifteenth · 07/11/2023 21:23

NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/11/2023 21:15

I didn't realise that The Revolution would start with the middleclass families demanding their right to go on expensive trips abroad in termtime.

Show quote history

Every right on every occasion it’s taken.

And the right to decide how you bring up your children is one of the most important and basic.

The protests I went on in 2020 were working class led. I don’t see why you care. Defining people by their parents class is quite a North Korean/Russian/Chinese/FrenchTerror thing to do.