To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting

[VestaTilley]

Yes, really.

Surrogacy Concern broke the news on Friday night. I can’t actually believe it.

Over a month to come, the Scottish Govt are asking for egg and sperm donors as young as 18 to come forward in a series of targeted ads on social media and the radio. They’ve expanded IVF provision and - in their own words - have a supply and demand issue.

I’d heard of fertility clinics advertising (bad enough in my view) but for a national Govt to do this to women is staggering. Women can die from complications arising from OHSS, which can be caused by egg donation. A British woman died in 2006 as a result.

The ads don’t mention these risks; it’s all “be kind” “do something amazing”. I cannot actually believe a Govt could be this stupid. They’ve only just apologised for forced adoption!

AIBU?

What is 'the patriarchy'?

And that's why we do this, because being female means something.

This. The universal male experience is never having to fear pregnancy and never having to manage menstruation, never having to take a pregnancy test, never having to take an ovulation test, never having to choose between navigating abortion and navigating childbirth, never enduring miscarriage. The universal female experience is never having the power to impose pregnancy on someone else. That's what defines our experiences as men and women.

It doesn't matter how much I or anyone else rails against the sexed body we are dealt at conception, it doesn't matter whether we have a gender identity nor what it is: that physical reality I just descibed does not and cannot go away.

Thank you for your sympathies. I'm sorry for your loss too. I'm sure there are trans men (I understand you object to the term) sho have lost their babies too, and that it was equally painful for them.

My husband is hurting too. He hasn't been through the physical ordeal I have, and wouldn't claim it was the same for him, but he too has lost a baby, and his feelings aren't insignificant because he is a man.

I'm usually the last person to go 'but what about the poor ickle men' but the pain of losing a baby is not restricted to women.

This. The universal male experience is never having to fear pregnancy and never having to manage menstruation, never having to take a pregnancy test, never having to take an ovulation test, never having to choose between navigating abortion and navigating childbirth, never enduring miscarriage. The universal female experience is never having the power to impose pregnancy on someone else. That's what defines our experiences as men and women.

I'm not saying these things aren't important, but do they define us? And are infertile women not women, or impotent men not men?

My husband is hurting too. He hasn't been through the physical ordeal I have, and wouldn't claim it was the same for him, but he too has lost a baby, and his feelings aren't insignificant because he is a man.

I'm not saying they are, at all. I feel for you both. But as you acknowledge, it's not the same experience for him, which is all I said. Trans "men" are female so of course have female experiences. My point is that being female is a meaningful concept and sometimes is important. That's all.

It doesn't matter how much I or anyone else rails against the sexed body we are dealt at conception, it doesn't matter whether we have a gender identity nor what it is: that physical reality I just descibed does not and cannot go away.

This. It really is that simple.

My pain is because I desperately want to be a parent, but it isn't happening, and because this possibility was lost this time, and this little life didn't make it. I'm not sure my sex or gender is at the heart of my pain, even if it's indisputably been rougher on me than on my husband.

I believe discrimination against trans and non binary people will end by taking the fight to power, and by inclusive education in schools and positive representation in media. Not by arguing with TERFs on the internet, whose minds are already made up.

Sorry, people aren't going to stop thinking biological sex is important. Tolerance of the self-obsessed narcissism of middle class navel gazers with their first would identity crises is actually going down, not up.

*first world identity crises

I'm not sure my sex or gender is at the heart of my pain

There's no need to analyse it in this way. You have suffered a loss. Only women get pregnant so it's something only women experience in the physical sense. That's all that's being said.

I'm so sorry for what you've been through. Of course infertile women are women, that's why when they go to the Doctor they can have tests and treatments to try to overcome whatever is stopping them getting pregnant. A tw though? An impotent man has treatment paths too for his erectile disfunction that would be inappropriate for any woman even if they identify as male.

I think being female means a lot more to you than it does to me. I'm not making a judgement on that. But I think how meaningful your sex or gender are to you is subjective and highly individual.

Male gamete donation: wank into a cup

Female gamete donation: being given excess amounts of hormones and undergoing a painful invasive process that may have physical consequences in future

I think being female means a lot more to you than it does to me. I'm not making a judgement on that. But I think how meaningful your sex or gender are to you is subjective and highly individual.

That's fine. But you understand why I personally won't just roll over for trans rights activists then? Multiply that by many women. The current trans "rights" movement is the worst systemic sexism/misogyny that I've ever come across in my lifetime, and I've experienced plenty of male abuse of various types.

Infertile women can't force a pregnancy.

Impotent men never fear pregnancy and can't menstruate.

I was describing the universal experiences of what each sex cannot do. What all man cannot do (be pregnant) is something that many women can do, but not all of them.

Of course egg donation is a bigger deal than sperm donation, that's why women are paid more.

If women decide it is something they want to do, and give informed consent, that is up to them. I'm happy that where I'm planning to have the treatment, appropriate safeguards are in place to prevent exploitation.

There is no actual evidence of physical, or indeed psychological, consequences in the future, but should such evidence ever emerge of course the law should change accordingly. However at the moment all anyone is saying is that 'common sense' dictates that it must be the case. Unfortunately the overwhelming scientific consensus is that there are no consequences. So I'm happy to proceed on that basis.

I think being female means a lot more to you than it does to me. [...] But I think how meaningful your sex or gender are to you is subjective and highly individual.

I hate being female, I wish I was male, and if it was possible to actually become so, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

But it isn't possible, and I'm not prepared to acquire yet more painful scar tissue and become dependent for life on exogenous hormones in order to mutilate my body so that it looks more like a man's.

I understand. I understand why certain types of Christians ardently fight against abortion rights. I don't doubt their sincerity, nor their strength of feeling, but I'll fight against them with every breath in my body. Just because I understand where you are coming from doesn't mean I agree with you.

Yours is the religious belief here, @PP82

Yes there is evidence that women have been damaged by the egg retrieval process, whether you choose to handwave it away as insignificant or not. Both women having their own eggs removed and women donating. It's an invasive process and there are always risks with these.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/egg-donors-may-face-uncertain-long-term-risks/

No one could accuse Scientific American of being terfy.

Just as an idea, why don't we deal with the big problem of mald sexual violence first, and then deal with the inconsequential matter of who pees where? If it is such a distraction, why don't we all just drop it and work on why it's an issue (in both directions) first - that is, male (sexual) violence? Which trans women fear when using male facilities, and cis women fear when male bodied people access theirs?

At the moment, it seems you are at least willing to accept that male bodied people are statistically more likely to commit violence than female-bodied people (for whatever reason). You would also, I assume, be willing to accept that that will not change with the advent of unisex bathrooms, which is, as you say, trivial in the scheme of things. So why is the issue that you are devoting so much attention to the evils of the TERFs, and not the violence of the men? I'm just very confused by your priorities. Is it just because it's an easy win for equality in your eyes to do away with single sex spaces, whereas tackling the issue of male violence (be it rooted in patriarchy or otherwise) is much harder?

I don't know how to respond to that, except I'm glad that gender affirming medical care is available for those that want or need it.

Life would be easier as a man for sure. Internally I feel quite traditionally feminine in some ways, so wouldn't want to become a man, despite all the ease and privilege that entails. I have no idea why I prefer a female body, or certain traditionally feminine pursuits. Maybe it's nature, maybe nurture. I suspect nurture but who cares really. It makes me no more of a woman than those who prefer traditionally male pursuits, or who dress in a less 'feminine ' fashion.

As for those who were born in a male body, if they've been living as a woman for a long time, been discriminated against as a woman, and have lived experiences of existing as a woman in society, that's what would bond me to them in sisterhood, regardless of their chromosomes or sexual organs.

Getting rid of single-sex spaces before eliminating male violence is putting the cart before the horse.

Installing a single-occupant loo alongside existing provision side-steps the who pees where argument by giving a safe loo for trans people without endangering women, but that doesn't validate the womany feelings of TW so they reject it. And that rejection of a pragmatic solution is a massive red flag.