to pronounce the name ‘Ciarán’?

[Mummy2Sienna]

I’ve heard ‘KEER-on’ all day on Radio 4, and just now ‘’Keer-ON’. (It’s the Irish spelling of ‘Kieren’ and pronounced as such).

Don’t the BBC have people to teach them how to pronounce names? I can think of a couple of famous Ciaráns. It’s not THAT unusual a name!!

Yes, but the second syllable is sometimes stressed also. It depends what part of Ireland the speaker is from. Putting more emphasis on the second syllable of two syllable words is actually a feature of Munster Irish. (Munster is the far south of Ireland for those in the UK.)

Problem is you need ipa.

You're all saying 'awn' as if everyone says 'awn' (and prawn) the same way.

The pronunciation linked to above (the 'how to pronounce properly' did not sound like 'awn' to me, more like 'ahn' so it doesn’t necessarily help.

I posted the IPA upthread; but as I said there, very few people on a general message board will be able to read Irish IPA. A tiny fraction of those who can read English IPA and that's already not a huge proportion of the population.

I linked a couple of sound files early yesterday morning at 2.06 if you look back @AutumnComfort. I'm sorry, my phone is misbehaving at the moment and I can't seem to link them again now. They might be helpful though?

I agree completely with @AutumnComfort - these pronunciation threads are impossible with people using their own accents to describe how they pronounce something and you have to first work out what that is to understand that they’re from the south of England and are adding r:s to show pronunciations with long A sounds and absolutely no R sounds. 😉 I’ve read the thread but must have missed the IPA from @SecretSanty . Found this online which seems right.

@AutumnComfort
Actually, trying again, I think the second site I linked is down at the moment. Hopefully it'll be working again later on.

@LizzieAnt yes. The second syllable is lightly stressed.

I couldn’t open your files, but there was another link that worked. IPA is IPA # don’t assume people can’t use it (or aren’t willing to try 🙂).

I do think this is very interesting. Ultimately imo a person's name is their name and how they say it is how it’s said (even my children who have two pronunciations due to languages are happy with both.

it’s a little different with place names/ foreign 'general' words.

Sorry about that @AutumnComfort.
I just checked and the site does seem to be okay again so hopefully they should open now.

'IPA is IPA' only works up to a point. Each language has sounds that don't exist in other languages and so its own subset of IPA. Irish IPA is generally written with a lot of superscript and subscript characters which you don't get in English IPA, and they represent differences in sounds which are pronounced identically in English.

I was wondering what on earth the news presenters were up to. I know there are variations according to accent and region, but their version was like nothing I’ve heard before!
Which is odd given the brain’s tendency to familiarise from what the actual sound is.

Ah ok - my assumption is that IPA includes these ‘subsets' as standard to show the sounds as needed. I don’t see them as a separate entity as such.

M Dad is a Wexford man and says ‘KEER-awn’ (I know this is what he is saying as I know his accent) but my London ear hears ‘KEER-on’.

The way he says ‘awn’ sounds like ‘on’, basically.

Neighbouring county here. I'm trying to 'hear' your 'on' , does it rhyme with lawn and yawn? I think I stress the first syllable slightly, like your dad! The Wexford accent generally tho is one of a kind! 😃

FuzzyCaoraDhubh
Correct. The second syllable isn't stressed. It's a long vowel (aw) as in 'prawn' or 'yawn'. Keer-awn.

Yes, but the second syllable is sometimes stressed also. It depends what part of Ireland the speaker is from. Putting more emphasis on the second syllable of two syllable words is actually a feature of Munster Irish. (Munster is the far south of Ireland for those in the UK.)

So people in different parts of Ireland pronounce a name in different ways. Because of their accents.
But it's outrageous for an English person to pronounce it in the way they do. Because of their accent. Ok then.

No. People pronounce it differently because there are different dialects of Irish. It is not simply a difference in accent.

There are different dialects in England too though.

And you could argue that (when speaking English) Irish is a dialect and English is a dialect, so when saying names (like Niamh for example) with an English dialect it’s as correct as saying something like Henry or George with an Irish dialect/ pronunciation. I’m probably garbling what I mean to say.

Um, no. Irish is not a dialect of English. It is a distinct language, still in daily use in many parts of the country, despite the best efforts of the british to wipe it out. Hiberno-English is the dialect of English spoken in Ireland.

There is a difference between saying something with a different accent and completely ignoring the correct pronunciation.

Many years ago when I was working in England, a colleague who had made up her own pronunciation of my name asked me how it is pronounced. I told her. She stated "oh right. Well, I prefer the way I say it so I'll carry on using that".

Generally, I have no problem with people getting my name a bit wrong. I do, however, have an issue with people who either make no effort whatsoever or who correct my pronunciation (yes, believe it or not, it does happen)

And you could argue that (when speaking English) Irish is a dialect and English is a dialect, so when saying names (like Niamh for example) with an English dialect it’s as correct as saying something like Henry or George with an Irish dialect/ pronunciation.

No. Definitely not.

I'm not talking about the Irish language, but English spoken in Ireland. Like English spoken in Scotland or Australia or America or India etc.

They will all have their own ways of pronouncing the same name. Doesn't make it wrong if my American colleagues pronounce my name differently.

The name Ignacio is pronounced very differently in different parts of Spain.

I think someone's name is their name and you should pronounce it how they want, but I don't think people should be looking down on others because they're not pronouncing a name exactly as they think they should (you see it a lot with the name Niamh).

Clearly people can choose to pronounce their own names how they like and others should try to honour that, it's rude not to.

But if I was attempting to speak Irish I'd be doing it with an English accent, so even if I attempt to say things correctly it will sound slightly different. I've been speaking French for twenty odd years but still have an English accent.

Yes, of course you would. But there is a massive difference between having an accent and making no attempt to pronounce it the correct way. The latter is what most Irish people object to.

Very few English people can pronounce my name correctly. However, most I have encountered make a reasonable effort and end up with an approximation of my name albeit with an English accent. There are, however, a minority who simply pronounce it as if it was English and make no effort with the correct pronunciation. That is rude.

Presumably if you were attempting to speak Irish, you would make an effort to pronounce the words correctly, as I assume you do with French?

Agree 100%

[And dying to know your name!!]

Exactly. Same as my own name (Siobhán). Weird that OP is Irish and doesn't know that.