Lying on school application

[strikemehigh]

School mum friend told me yesterday that she's used her NC DM's address for her child's high school application.

Her DM lives in a different county (the one I live in) and friend lives just over the border into a different county. Both our DC are at primary school in her county but obviously I'm applying to my county for high school place.

We are quite rural. Her fake address is middle of nowhere and her real one the same but miles away. Hence the distances to schools.

Anyway, this would be bad enough but she's put 2 schools that as the crow flies from the fake address her child is unlikely to get into. First choice school A, the furthest please given based on distance last year was 3.3 miles and address is about 5. Second choice school B is almost ten miles from fake address and already oversubscribed. DC has no other factors such as EHCP which might help.

She has not put a third choice so 'they'll have to give me one of the choices'. When I explained that isn't how it works child will likely be allocated school C which is the nearer fake address she said she would just appeal.

AIBU that this is short sighted and bonkers? Also fraud - which if she wasn't so unlikely to get her way based on the choices I'd be thinking of reporting.

It's catchment and feeder schools in our area for high school for both LA schools and academics.

She will fall at the first hurdle anyway. You say both the schools she has applied for are full before that distance anyway so she's unlikely to get in. If she hasn't put a catchment school as her 3rd place she's stuffed and her child will end up with a school that has a space left.

I wish they wouldn't give the illusion of choice to people as in reality you can express a preference but can most likely end up in the local school unless there are extra spaces available elsewhere. Which is why you should always put your catchment school as third even if your not that keen on it.

It can be different for children with ECHE plans or church schools.

There are two things wrong here. One is the use of a fraudulent address in an attempt to deprive another child of the place that should have been theirs.

The other is her hopelessly wrong approach to filling in the forms in the utterly misguided belief that you can only be allocated one you have put on the form. You've tried to talk to her about that, but if she won't listen there really isn't more that you can do.

But on the first, though it might sound wrong to some, the kindest thing you can do is report the suspected fraud now. Before any secondary deadline to amend addresses on the forms. Because then her application might not be treated as "late" and if for some reason the admissions distances extend further this year (lower birth rate, sparse population in the area) she might perhaps just get very lucky.

If there is no secondary deadline, or if this matter does not come to the attention of the LA until after it, then she is well and truly stuffed as her application will be treated as "late" (ie no allocation made until after all on-time applications have been dealt with)

This. And yet every year on allocations day, there are threads from parents whose child either hasn't got a place or has been allocated an RI school in the arse end of nowhere.

Not putting the designated school as an insurance option does not increase the chances of getting the naicer school.

Sounds like her banana skins will come home to roost, to quote my English teacher.

Admissions fraud is not a victimless crime. As @TeenDivided put so eloquently, it's strange that it seems so socially acceptable.

Bizarre that people will go to all this trouble yet not bother to read and understand the (always, IME, very clearly laid out) admissions code.

All those saying don't report it 'snitching' 'grassing' etc.

How would you feel if it was your child that was 1st or 2nd on the waiting list come 1st September and missed out on a school place because of someone cheating?

Absolutely this.

All those saying don't report it 'snitching' 'grassing' etc.

How would you feel if it was your child that was 1st or 2nd on the waiting list come 1st September and missed out on a school place because of someone cheating?

Agree with this totally.

I always find it fascinating that on many topics Mumsnetters are ready to report, call 101 to log it, report neighbours to the council for entirely bog standard daily life, but when it comes to school admissions it's Lord of the Flies, the pointy elbows come out and any questions to it are dismissed as spragging/grassing.

Wow I don’t agree with parents lying to get a school place and they really piss me
off with how selfish they are, but I think withdrawing a child’s school place when they are already there and settled/settling in is really cruel. I think the parents should be fined though if they get found out.

No, the “cruelty” is ultimately caused by the parents.

Exactly. One of my friends has her heart set on the school which is second closest to us. When we were doing the applications, she said she’s not putting any other preferences because she doesn’t want her daughter to go to any other school.
I said to her it’s better to put two more rather than just the one she wants, just in case she doesn’t get a place and her DD won’t be placed somewhere miles away. She of course didn’t listen to me.

I think her DD will get a place at the school to be honest. But if she doesn’t, she will be wondering why her DD has been given a place at a school 2 buses away at the other side of town in an area she doesn’t like. When she could have put option 2 and 3 as schools close by. And then that might be when the penny drops about what I was saying to her.

Oh I know that. I just feel so sorry for the children in that situation.

Just let it run it's course. Imo it should be a criminal offence with a massive fine.

It is really cruel so the parents need to be ok with that outcome when they lie

I'm lucky enough to have chosen and been able to afford to live in an area with good schools. I think the fact people are prepared to go to such extremes is a damning indictment on the postcode lottery of our schools. That's the real crime here.

This poor kid is probably going to get dumped in a school miles from home and friends and then end up moving again to somewhere closer when his mum realises what an idiot she's been.

I didn't realise kids got chucked out if caught out though. How awful for the children when it's their parents fault.

This. And yet every year on allocations day, there are threads from parents whose child either hasn't got a place or has been allocated an RI school in the arse end of nowhere.

Not putting the designated school as an insurance option does not increase the chances of getting the naicer school

Exactly and then they come on Mumsnet asking for help with an appeal and seem surprised that "but I want School A (that i was never going to get into based on the admission criteria) and instead of putting School B (that might not be first preference but it's local and I'm 99% going to get a place), I didn't put anything and now I'm furious that I've got School G in the shit end of town. I can't have my Jemima going there because it's full of oiks. Help me write an appeal that says my naice child needs a naice school. Can I mention that Jemima does stage school on weekends so needs to be at a school that does school productions at a local theatre?"

Resilience
I don't disagree with you, but having taught in a range of schools not all schools are facing the same issues. Short of giving some school communities and parents a personality transplant so they actually value education, there's no getting away from the fact that parental attitudes to education make a huge difference to the issues schools work with. It's easier to teach in a school where parents are invested in education than a school where parents blame you for the fact their child assaulted you (both true stories).

It's their parents choice though unfortunately. It will ruin their relationship. Yet that still doesn't seem to put people off doing it!

What I have noticed though is so many parents make their school decision having never even visited the school!!

Our local catchment used to be the "rough" school, like a decade ago and now it's not and it's ofsted report is good, it's got great staff, SEN support is second to none yet every year my estates FB page is "I am NOT sending me kid there" and when asked they haven't even looked at the website let alone read the reports or visited. They just remember it's reputation from years before when there was a couple of violent incidents back in 2001 and 2012.

It's mad because the school is amazing, and my son has thrived. I have a daughter at an outstanding school and we have had to have police involved 3 times as she has been assaulted on school grounds! The school are so dismissive as they ride on their reputation and people move to the town to get that school! If it wasn't for my daughter wanting to stay with her friends (and only have a year left) I would have pulled her out!!

I honestly think we should return back to catchment schools and faith schools and stop thinking parents have a choice when the reality is secondary school places are a joke in this country and LAs are up against it just trying to find a place for all kids let alone sort of the 2000 parents asking for places in the 1500 spaces school because out of catchment parents think its worthwhile..

@LolaSmiles I agree with you. I have friends who are teachers. They work incredibly hard. I live in a 'nice' area with 'nice' schools but I remember an incident which really showed me what they have to put up with when my DS was 9 and had kicked a wall in temper and broken something as a result. I got called in to discuss. I told them that I had spoken to my son. He was writing an apology, would accept sanctions from the school and would be paying for the damage out of his pocket money (I'd actually pay it up front and he'd have his pocket money deducted basically). The school were in complete disbelief. The Head told me it usually goes very differently and they were braced for a 'challenging' conversation.

All that said, I still think there's a lot more schools can do. But admittedly not without significant further investment involving longer school days and the employment of not just more teachers but more support staff such as TAs, SENCOs, counsellors and pastoral care, even in-house social workers. All of which will require a lot of investment. I'm happy to pay more tax for that even though my own DC won't see any direct benefit because I recognise the value it has for wider society. Some of these kids just need to be shown a better way. I am frequently amazed at how many 'problem kids' actually do really really well when someone truly invests in them. When they can attend extra curricular activities or a school trip because it's actually been funded and transport provided. It shows them a whole new world they never thought was within their reach outside of social media. Teachers in schools in deprived areas with high unemployment , high crime, poor outcomes etc try their best but they can't be role models, social workers, counsellors and educators. Way more staff are needed if schools are going to achieve that. I know a lot of people think that schools shouldn't even be doing this in the first place and we're all entitled to our opinions. I respect those opinions and think in an ideal world it wouldn't be necessary. It's just my opinion that is is sadly necessary and that schools - with the right investment - have the opportunity to really change kids lives socially as well as educationally because kids have to be there.

Honestly her plan won't work. I know of several parents who only put down a couple of options under the assumption it meant their children had to get in to one or the other. The outcome in all 3 cases was that the kids were allocated schools a much larger distance away (and in one case to a school that was undersubscribed due to being placed in special measures). It was really stressful for the families and only one then got their child into one of their listed preferenced schools on appeal. It's understandable why people think putting fewer options works, but it doesn't!

I think she hasn't thought this through - won't the high school write to her at her DM's address? Or ask for proof of address, like a council tax bill or child benefit letter? And only putting 2 schools down is absolutely crazy. The local authority will not feel 'forced' to give her one of her two choices if she doesn't meet the relevant criteria. They'll just place the child at the nearest school.

Whose address did you use for the application?
Did you not worry someone would check up on it?

But that is nothing to do with only putting one school. It was a risky tactic as you could have been left with a ‘leftover’ school, that no-one wanted.

You fit the admissions criteria for the school you preferred, in line with the number of other families that had applied. . Even if you had put another school, you would still have got the one you did, maybe low numbers that year.

Sadly lots of people do this and I don't think much checking is done. Back in London there was an outstanding secondary school but had a catchment area of less than 0.5 miles. Our house, though just 2 roads away was outside of this. It was right by our Nursery and I would see hundreds of cars snarling the roads for collection. Never understood a school that I could walk to in 7 mins had so many cars when my house 2 roads away wasn't even in catchment! Turns out a lot of parents had rental units or other addresses they could use and zero checks were done. We knew people who somehow even used friends addresses.

You are comparing child abuse to a child not getting a school place on their desired school because another mum has fraudulently lied about school place. I mean come on 🙄

Generally I would report child abuse or other serious crimes against children . I would report someone if they had conducted a violent offense against an adult if the victim wanted me to report or was unable to consent to a report. I'd only report fraud if the victim was an individual especially if they were vulnerable. Otherwise I would mind my own business.

Honestly I don't understand the mindset of reporting random people for stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with you. People are just trying to get by in life. The original post said it's a mum school friend. Who dobs their friends in to the authorities? Over a lie on an application?

The society we live in doesn't care about me or to be honest you. People are just trying to get by in life. It's not my job making other people's lives harder by reporting people to authorities for petty things like lying on an application form. We are hardly talking serious crime here.

Perhaps if we lived in a different society I would think differently but we do not. Wider society couldn't give a crap so you should be able to rely on your friends, and a friend grassing in another friend for a petty crime in my book just isn't ok