To think most female prisoners are sad rather than bad?

[Hereinthismoment]

Watching Time. Obviously I’m saying most and some will be bad. Some will be sad and bad. But it has always seemed to me most are likely to be really vulnerable. No expert though.

Because you have a DH who lives with his children. Not the case in the majority of imprisoned women’s lives — very few are still in a relationship with their children’s father. High numbers are solo parents. Most of their children are looked after by family while they’re inside.

I’ve taught in prisons in the UK and elsewhere. Women are statistically more likely to be inside because of theft or drug offences, mostly committed because of addiction — very few because of violent crimes. Some for non-payment of fines. Mostly short sentences of a year or under.

Where I live now, nearly half of women prisoners have needed psychiatric treatment in the past, and a quarter had been admitted to a psychiatric hospital unit before being in prison.

That's the nature of Mumsnet these days - have to centre men.

In response to your question about female prisoners, yes I think most of them have lived sad lives, have experienced trauma and have been victims themselves. This doesn't excuse their behaviour but does explain it.

That's the nature of Mumsnet these days - have to centre men.

What, in the centre with people throwing rocks at them? 😂

I see a lot more prejudice/hate against men on here than I do positive sentiment, and posters that challenge it are usually called 'pick me's' or 'handmaidens'.

Agreed, the prison system is fucked, male or female. Some people do need to be locked up for obvious reasons but there's so many and yes lots are female- that were in a bad position and did what they had to do.

I've worked in many types of prisons in more than one country. Female and male provision (and mixed youth). If you removed from prison:

Anyone with a head injury (in women this is almost always DV)
Anyone with a learning disability
Anyone coerced or controlled
Anyone neurodivergent (particularly ADHD)
Anyone seriously abused as a child

You'd be down to a pretty small number and of those almost all would be a combination of addicted, mentally ill and bereaved. I did a project once in youth corrections and a timeline with the offenders. There was NO young person in the group who hadn't lost a close person (dad, mum, brother, sister). Not one.

Prisons are places we warehouse the humans we didn't bother to help before they broke. Rehabs/treatment are also full of bereaved people and those abused as children.

It's not rocket science. Reduce abuse, reduce DV, deal with cognitive differences well, give people bereavement counselling, you'd empty prisons.

None of these things is voluntary. These situations were forced on people. And yes some people suffer and don't offend. But that's a combination of luck, neuroplasticity and confounding variables. Not goodness.

Yes you would be right.

I spent 4 years working as a prison detox nurse. 2 years in male estate and 2 years in female estate. I've made a plethora of content about it. The differences are very stark.

96% of all violent crime and 99% of all sexual offences are carried out by men. Most women in prison are incredibly vulnerable.

In male estate, if I wanted to treat a prisoner I would have to find a prison officer to unlock the prisoner, bring them to my treatment room, chaperone them and take them back.

In female estate if I wanted to treat a female prisoner I would tell the wing officer, unlock her myself, radio control and tell them the prisoners movements, take them across the yard to the treatment room on my own, then take them back and lock them away myself.

The differences are so large I don't even know where to begin describing them.

Thank you for your excellent post..

The vast majority of people detained in the prison estate are damaged. The results of that damage might present differently in women than in men, but one sex is no more or less a victim of the lives or the people that damaged them than the other.

It's easier to feel sympathy for women because we identify with them and their crimes are generally less violent. I'm no different from any of us on that.
But the men are no less broken than the women, and if you looked back to these people's childhoods you'd feel for the abused and neglected young boys as much as the girls (I hope).

Excellent post.

@Hanlonsamazer very brave of you to post about your experiences so openly and I'm relieved you seem to have come through comparatively unscathed (or would healthy be a better phrase?).

I suppose the difference the op alludes to is that men and male prisoners/criminals are generally more dangerous as individuals than women who are prisoners/criminals.

Both men & women who end up in prison will have likely been victims themselves and ended up incarcerated through tragedy rather than an innate evilness.

But if women are more likely to be jailed for theft, fraud, drug possession etc, than violent crimes and if you ask why they committed the crimes, I'm guessing we would assume its because they were looking to provide for children or had been coerced...

Men are also coerced of course, but the risk of violence is higher*

*(I believe and generally I think people would assume- someone with knowledge will hopefully correct me if wrong)

Anyone with a head injury (in women this is almost always DV)
Anyone with a learning disability
Anyone coerced or controlled
Anyone neurodivergent (particularly ADHD)
Anyone seriously abused as a child

Which one if these would Lucy Letby come under?

Why would she come under any of them?

You have woefully misunderstood stood the point.

Psychopathy is also a big factor. More than 1 in 100 of men are. About 1 in 400 women.

Since I am not part of her clinical assessment team, how would I know. And entirely possible she is not any of those. You do know most women in prison, by a reeeeeaaaalllllly long way, are not multiple murderers.

This is also the case with most male prisoners.

Your rapist who broke you won’t get punished.
your parent who hit you and didn’t feed you and always made you feel bad won’t get punished. You’ve probably been passed over for promotion. Maybe decent men avoid you, as thanks to abuse you have terrible self esteem. So you meet an abusive man (this seems normal) who beats you and leaves you with kids and doing everything alone. You can’t work ft thanks to kids and cost of living hits. So you steal and have the book thrown at you. After a lifetime of pain you get punished when none of your abusers ever did.

fictional

its always a choice to commit crime and some people are just unpleasant/greedy/entitled.

lots of male prisoners dont have fathers in their life, I dont know if its the same for women.

Then again there are also lots of fatherless people who dont commit crime?

And Wayne Couzens?

Neuroplasticity and lots of factors like age of ACE and so on affect it. Knee jerk reckons aren't the same as understanding the underlying causes and are much more fun.

Unlike understanding, judging doesn't require thinking or reasoning. Instead, judging is really about a limited perspective. It's how we define the world for ourselves. When we judge, we try to make someone else see the world as we do.

In other words, judging doesn’t require an active brain. That’s why it’s so common.

I do think we need more mental institutions more than we need more prisons.

There's always one. 🙄Did you miss the word "most" in both the title and OP?

Never a truer word spoken.

As a mental health nurse I strongly disagree. Most people can and should be treated in the community.