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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think my friend will lose her job

159 replies

MollyMindy · 31/10/2023 18:53

Posting for advice as a close friend of mine is in a bind

She started a new job 2 months ago, a promotion, all good.

4 weeks ago her husband walked out, no kids, but she is devastated. Can't function at work, been doing the bare minimum, and what she is doing I gather is pretty poor quality.

Performance is now being monitored, informally for last few weeks, more support given etc. She thinks it is going to get more formal soon, so has got herself signed off for a month with stress.

She is under the impression that although she is on probation she now can't be touched, I think she is wrong but not sure what advice if any to give her.

OP posts:
Passepartoute · 01/11/2023 08:12

Might your friend be receptive to the notion that actually getting her head down and doing her job properly would help her dealing with her relationship issues? I've often found that, no matter how bad things were - including lose bereavements - , once I was back at work it helped me to put whatever the problem was into separate mental "box" and concentrate on work where I could function more or less normally.

Neriah · 01/11/2023 08:16

She's partly right.
It's highly unlikely that she'll be let go whilst she's signed off.

She certainly isn't partly right. She has worked there for 2 months, has had time off for a cold and toothache, and now a month at least for stress. Even the most sympathetic employer is going to be considering dismissal in those circumstances and they can DEFINITELY and easily dismiss whilst she is signed off sick.

Rosscameasdoody · 01/11/2023 08:21

Canonlythinkofthisone · 31/10/2023 19:47

She's partly right.
It's highly unlikely that she'll be let go whilst she's signed off.

But

As PP have said, all that will happen is that it will delay the inevitable. She needs to reach out to her line manager/HR/EAP and be open and honest.

It may still result in a failed probation period but she'll have more chance of some leniency if she is honest. Most workplaces these days have people trained in mental health and almost all can refer to occupational health services. Rather than burying her head in the sand, she needs to speak up pronto.

There is nothing in law to stop the employer firing her while she is signed off, provided they observe notice periods.

user1471538283 · 01/11/2023 08:22

She needs to hang onto the job if she can. Will she meet or speak to the employer to ask if they could extend her probation and then go back to work?

If she takes another month off sick on top of the rest without engaging with the employer they will let her go. They might anyway but at least by engaging she has done all she can to keep the job.

Katrinawaves · 01/11/2023 08:23

pam290358 · 01/11/2023 08:12

Probation doesn’t mean anything when it comes to employment law and doesn’t allow an employer to sack an employee any quicker. They still have to honour notice periods etc.

Show quote history

Probation is usually though a contractual construct and during the probation period the contractual notice period is much shorter than it would be once probation has been passed.

So for a senior role, notice during the probation period could be as short as one week but once probation is passed, it goes up to 3 or even 6 months

Startrekkeruniverse · 01/11/2023 08:28

Passepartoute · 01/11/2023 08:12

Might your friend be receptive to the notion that actually getting her head down and doing her job properly would help her dealing with her relationship issues? I've often found that, no matter how bad things were - including lose bereavements - , once I was back at work it helped me to put whatever the problem was into separate mental "box" and concentrate on work where I could function more or less normally.

100%.

The fact she’s intending to potentially get another 4 week sick note (taking two months off after a marriage breakdown is pretty OTT) plus the fact she’s taken sick days off for having a cold and toothache would make me want to get rid of her to be honest.

Beautiful3 · 01/11/2023 08:28

She's not protected because she's still on probation. They're going to get rid of her for sure. You cannot have lots of time off, when your partner leaves you! Maybe one day would be okay, but not if she's already had many days off.

MrsPinkCock · 01/11/2023 08:32

I’m an employment lawyer and if the employer was my client I’d probably be telling them it’s fine to dismiss. Some more wary employers might see “stress” and go down a formal capability route first though just in case it’s linked to a long term MH condition which could be a disability.

However either way she is clearly incapable of performing the role both due to incapability when she is there and persistent absences. I’ve terminated people whilst covered by a fit note many times over the years.

Your friend has had a rough time and it sounds like she needs help and support to try and get back to some normality. Maybe losing her job will shock her into taking some action for herself?

nibblessquibbles · 01/11/2023 08:33

It really depends on the probation policy at work but typically you can fail soneone's probation if they've been off sick for a long period as they haven't been able to demonstrate they've met the criteria to pass probation. She's also already flagged up as not performing so there would be sufficient evidence to cause doubt that she can perform.
Her best bet is as PP said to come clean, explain that she is aware she's not been at her best and that she just needs a month to get herself sorted and then she'll come back and perform and that she would be happy for probation to be extended to cover the gap. If she proactively offers this and recognises the issues they may look more kindly on this.

HollaHolla · 01/11/2023 08:43

I think there's a few things to consider here:

  • She needs to be honest with her employer. If she has a decent, sympathetic manager/HR person, then she needs to be honest with them both. If she's in a Union, also involve the Union Rep - they will have experience in supporting people through this sort of thing, and will be able to guide her.
  • If she's not in the Union, and eligible to join/be represented, then JOIN! Too many people only think about Union membership when it's too late. For a few ££ a month, I've personally had excellent Union support, in difficult/challenging situations.
  • She needs to stop going to the pub every night. For a couple of reasons... Firstly, alcohol is a depressant (and anxiety provoking in hangovers), so it's probably not doing her mental health any use. Also, if she's spotted, and it gets back to work, it doesn't paint things in the best light.
  • Some contact/support/meetings with friends are absolutely the way to go, but can she do it as exercise (even a walk with friends), meeting at a house, or even the movies or something? None of those things have the same stigma as being in the pub. My GP recommended I keep up with swimming/gym/yoga, etc. I also met friends every Wednesday for a movie, or a coffee. It was important to keep some structure and routine, instead of just being in PJs all day.
  • Can she access any workplace support, with her mental health or practical situation? My employer is a large University, and we have an external employer support (AXA, I think), who we can get confidential counselling (appointments within a week), and practical/legal/financial advice. It's been really useful for me, when I suffered significant issues with early menopause symptoms.

I genuinely wish your friend all the best. It sounds an awful situation for her, and losing her job would only exacerbate things. Being open and flagging the issues can only help her, I would think.
You sound a good friend, looking to support her; she sounds lucky to have you on her side. If you can help with the practical things, and support her sorting those things out, I'm sure it's going to be something she's thankful for.

CalistoNoSolo · 01/11/2023 08:49

If I had employed her, I'd get rid of her as soon as possible. We all go through emotionally traumatic events, most of us have no choice but to crack on and keep everything together.

TheSquareMile · 01/11/2023 08:59

Re her husband walking out, has she been to see a solicitor for legal advice?

Knowing that she has been able to take positive action on that might help her towards recovery.

HappiestSleeping · 01/11/2023 09:01

MollyMindy · 31/10/2023 19:05

I think the issue is that she has been told by someone online that if its stress related illness her employer can't fail her probation, not sure that is the case.
She is unlikely to go back in 4 weeks and is likely to be signed off again.

This is absolutely not true. A person can be released while they are on sick leave, and / or they can fail probation for poor performance.

She is damaging her ongoing employment by choosing this course of action. She would be better advised to speak to her manager, and HR, and tell them what is going on if she hasn't already. It may be possible to work something out, but I suspect she is on a path to not having a job.

Startingagainandagain · 01/11/2023 09:02

OP the main issue is that your friend seems to be in a really bad place and needs to sort out her mental health first. The reality is that she is unable to work right now while she is in that state.

Yes people are giving practical advice about hanging on to her job, but when someone is having a real crisis/complete meltdown they are unable to think rationally and function as usual.

Her focus has to be on putting their health back on track and seeking help.

It might mean that she loses this job. There will be other jobs once she manages to get past her heartbreak.

What she really needs to do is take steps to get her mental health back on track. Her GP should have advised her to consider medication for a while and to try to get some counselling/speak to someone about her breakup.

I had a huge breakdown recently after various successive trauma and was left unable to do anything for a while. I was literally a threat to myself and had to be visited daily by the mental health crisis team at home for about 10 days and just about avoided being admitted to a mental health ward. The GP put me on medication and signed me off work for a month and a half. My point is sometimes your body and mind just need you to take a break. I put myself first, not my job or my employer because I only have one life/body/mind and there can always be another job. I did tell my employers exactly what was happening and in my case I had already declared a history of depression/mental health issues so I also have the protection of this coming under a long term disability.

People seem to think your friend should just snap out of it but it is not always that easy...

I wonder if her going to the pub is actually a red flag that she is self-medicating with alcohol too.

I think people need to be a little less judgemental about mental health issues and stop thinking this is just someone you can just snap out of.

Zanatdy · 01/11/2023 09:03

is she on probation again for a promotion? In my organisation you don’t restart probation but you could be put on a plan. Not whilst off sick though obviously. If she’s on probation then usually the amount of time you can take off sick is low. She needs to check this all out

DyslexicPoster · 01/11/2023 09:05

From my understanding they can let her go on probation. Probation is for trying you on as an employee so if your not a good fit as you under preform that's that.

Passepartoute · 01/11/2023 09:07

Zanatdy · 01/11/2023 09:03

is she on probation again for a promotion? In my organisation you don’t restart probation but you could be put on a plan. Not whilst off sick though obviously. If she’s on probation then usually the amount of time you can take off sick is low. She needs to check this all out

OP has said the promotion is with a new employer.

Rosscameasdoody · 01/11/2023 09:09

Katrinawaves · 01/11/2023 08:23

Probation is usually though a contractual construct and during the probation period the contractual notice period is much shorter than it would be once probation has been passed.

So for a senior role, notice during the probation period could be as short as one week but once probation is passed, it goes up to 3 or even 6 months

Edited
Show quote history

Yep, I understand that. I was addressing this and posts by several PP’s which seem to suggest that a that an employer can sack immediately if the employee is on probation. Just pointing out that this is not the case, and the employer still has to give contractual notice.

greenhydrangea · 01/11/2023 09:11

MollyMindy · 31/10/2023 20:51

Not sure about specific support but she is going out most nights to the local to meet friends , so does have some interaction every day

Too stressed to go to work, but able to go out to the local...

I'd bin her off as an employee on this alone. Haven't many of us had (horrendous) breakups, physical and nervous breakdowns, and dragged ourselves into our jobs regardless, often on little to no sleep?

Mikimoto · 01/11/2023 09:19

That's what probation is!!!
To see what it might be like having someone as a full-time employee.

greenhydrangea · 01/11/2023 09:20

In this case, really shit.

TeenLifeMum · 01/11/2023 09:23

MollyMindy · 31/10/2023 18:58

She has also taken a few odd days off here and there for a cold and toothache.

I don't know what the sick pay provision is however

She’s only been there 2 months?! That is a lot already. What’s her previous sickness been like?

Mikimoto · 01/11/2023 09:23

greenhydrangea · 01/11/2023 09:20

In this case, really shit.

😂
Wonder if her Out of Office says "Soz, I'm down the Red Lion"?!

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 01/11/2023 09:25

Canonlythinkofthisone · 31/10/2023 19:47

She's partly right.
It's highly unlikely that she'll be let go whilst she's signed off.

But

As PP have said, all that will happen is that it will delay the inevitable. She needs to reach out to her line manager/HR/EAP and be open and honest.

It may still result in a failed probation period but she'll have more chance of some leniency if she is honest. Most workplaces these days have people trained in mental health and almost all can refer to occupational health services. Rather than burying her head in the sand, she needs to speak up pronto.

Yep. Seems like extending the probationary period after her return might be the best solution.

But these kinds of compromises tend to requite openness and a willingness to compromise.

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 01/11/2023 09:26

I’d speak to HR and get them to extend the probation period but also speak to the manager and explain what’s happened and be honest.