Page 10 | Aibu to not refund this buyer?

Sellerseller1 · 2023-10-30T14:48:59+00:00

Have an online website selling handmade items. Buyers item was shipped with royal mail tracked delivery, tracking info says it was delivered to a safe place. Customer has now emailed to say item must have been stolen from said safe place and therefore they want me to refund. Aibu to say no? I have sympathy if it genuinely was stolen but firstly I can't just refund everyone who messages to say something has been stolen with no evidence it actually has been and secondly, I've fulfilled my obligation in that it's been sent and marked as delivered on the tracking page. If they come back and it seems they are actually telling the truth I.e. trying to correspond with royal mail/ the police then I may as a gesture of good will replace it but I don't think I need to straight away? (Or even at all technically). Fwiw item wasn't cheap and took a lot of work.

caringcarer · 03/11/2023 09:07

Have you got a delivery photo to prove it was delivered? If it had value why didn't you use signed for? A customer of yours can't claim from the delivery service because you chose the delivery firm and ordered the delivery. You are the customer of the delivery firm not your customer.

margotrose · 03/11/2023 09:08

Jadeybabez · 03/11/2023 09:01

Op I wouldn't refund without a crime reference number. Tis the season to be ripped off unfortunately 😞 xx

All the buyer needs to do prove parcel wasn't delivered correctly by Royal Mai. They don't need (and won't get) a crime reference number for that.

keepgoingdespiteeverything · 03/11/2023 09:09

I sold something on eBay last year (worth about £50) and sent with tracked delivery. The buyer contacted me to say it had not arrived although the RM site was showing as 'parcel handed to recipient' and there was also an indistinct scribble/signature on the photo that RM provided.

Buyer was really annoyed (as you'd expect) and demanded a refund. I tried to be really helpful, suggesting maybe it had been accidentally delivered to a neighbour or left in a safe place etc (despite the signature). She was adamant she wanted a refund so I asked her to take it to eBay disputes and let them decide. But nope she just wanted the money directly and slip the disputes process so I had to dig my heels in and say no.

In the end she actually found it under a massive pile of leaves and unfortunately the box and contents were now unusable. She couldn't provide a picture as she said she didn't have a smartphone so I applied to RM but there was little they could do without evidence. They sent me a book of 6 stamps as a 'goodwill gesture' which I passed on to the buyer. I later learned that apparently during Covid, posties were allowed to drop off packages and sign for them themselves, in order to provide a contactless delivery.

Total mess of a situation but I think if you've done things correctly, tracked and sent the package, then you really shouldn't have to be out of pocket. It sucks for the buyer though!

timetorefresh · 03/11/2023 09:19

If the buyer picked the safe place and it was stolen from there then it's nothing to do with you. Pretty sure it says that when you pick the spot it's up to you. If royal mail dumped it somewhere then you need to refund and reclaim from them. Either way you need to ask RM which it was

BowlOfNoodles · 03/11/2023 09:53

Was it a nominated safe place? If not you owe the money. I've personally had 2 parcels in 10 years stolen off my doorstep ( I absolutely didn't add any nominated safe place ) royal mail/couriers have been just dumping items since covid.

Northernladdette · 03/11/2023 10:04

Offer her a replacement item, sounds like she’s pulling a fast one…..

DragonFly98 · 03/11/2023 10:34

Rainbow1101 · 03/11/2023 08:51

Request the GPS coordinates from Royal Mail, as they have this information on record during the delivery scan. If the item has been confirmed as delivered but subsequently stolen, it is the buyer's responsibility to report the theft and make a claim with their home insurance. The seller's responsibility is considered fulfilled once the item is marked as delivered.

Not if it's been chucked in their green waste bin like my parcel was yesterday without my consent. My notification said "my safe space" , I never agreed to a safe space.

Brefugee · 03/11/2023 10:37

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 14:59

Unfortunately I don't think royal mail will pay out their insurance if their tracking is saying delivered to the correct address.

I have responded and asked the buyer to contact royal mail and said that I will do so as well to show willing on my part to help.

I just don't know how I can be expected to refund or replace every item that someone just decides to tell me has been stolen, obviously I would if the tracking wasn't showing as delivered but how can I know its not a scam and what's to stop every other buyer just saying the same and getting a refund?

if it's correct that only the seller has a contract with Royal Mail, OP, you need to check into this and what to do when this kind of thing happens.

If it is true, then you need to have a process in place where the buyer contacts you and you contact Royal Mail. You may need to start including insurance in your shipping costs? You can include in terms and conditions - something like: if the parcel is stolen after it has been posted, you will follow up with Royal Mail and if they conpensate you, you will pass the compensation on to the buyer.

Would that work?

NotASharer · 03/11/2023 12:41

I understand your frustration OP and agree with you, it'd be pretty shoddy for business if a buyer is able to claim stolen and get a refund.

But sometimes Royal Mail do get it wrong, I once had a woman at my front door screaming and shouting that I had stolen her parcel as it was clearly marked as delivered to my address (no photo evidence) telling me she was going to ring the police and I was a thief. I had never received such a parcel but the woman was adamant I'd stolen it and not given it back to her! Nothing ended up coming of it but it was all pretty awkward as she only lived down the road and I never found out whether she managed to track her parcel down wherever it ended up.

However, the issue is with royal mail I believe. Not you.

Kwasi · 03/11/2023 12:56

When you select the safe place option with Royal Mail, you have to agree to the terms and conditions, which include the recipient taking full responsibility once goods have been delivered. It is not on you or Royal Mail to compensate her.

henrysugar12 · 03/11/2023 13:03

Royal Mail left my parcel in a "safe place" which was my doorstep. Still better than at a previous address they used my bin on bin day as the safe place. You can guess what happened!

urbanbuddha · 03/11/2023 13:13

The seller's responsibility is considered fulfilled once the item is marked as delivered.

No.
The seller’s responsibility is fulfilled once the item is actually delivered NOT “marked as delivered”. Royal Mail mark items as delivered when they have just dumped them in a “safe place”. The buyer hasn’t chosen the safe place, Royal Mail did. Most people have not nominated a safe place - this is Royal Mail failing to deliver.

An item is delivered when the buyer receives it. That’s what delivery means.

DerventioRising · 03/11/2023 13:15

As a former seller myself, it is your responsibility to raise a claim with Royal Mail stating the customer did not receive the item. They should have photo evidence which you can provide to your client. I personally would do this then refund or send a new item for customer goodwill.

nanamoo · 03/11/2023 13:42

I've had it happen myself when i used to make/sell small items online. When a customer informed me that their item was showing as delivered to a safe place but was missing. (RM don't always pick a good safe place) I'd let them know that i'd contact RM to get more info from them and pass any info given to the buyer and that any refund will be given once it's been resolved with RM. Keep the buyer informed as the claim goes through the system. I've not had a claim rejected by RM over an item reported as missing after being delivered to a 'safe place'.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 03/11/2023 13:51

NotASharer · 03/11/2023 12:41

I understand your frustration OP and agree with you, it'd be pretty shoddy for business if a buyer is able to claim stolen and get a refund.

But sometimes Royal Mail do get it wrong, I once had a woman at my front door screaming and shouting that I had stolen her parcel as it was clearly marked as delivered to my address (no photo evidence) telling me she was going to ring the police and I was a thief. I had never received such a parcel but the woman was adamant I'd stolen it and not given it back to her! Nothing ended up coming of it but it was all pretty awkward as she only lived down the road and I never found out whether she managed to track her parcel down wherever it ended up.

However, the issue is with royal mail I believe. Not you.

Legally, since the OP has the contract with the courier, they are her agents (a legal term) and she is legally responsible for the actions of RM. You can’t say ‘the issue is with RM not you’ as for the purpose of completing the contract of sake, the OP is legally responsible for the actions of RM.

If RM delivered the parcel to a safe place chosen by the buyer or delivered it into the buyer’s hands, OP is fine. Anything else (including RM choosing a ‘safe place’ themselves), the item hasn’t been delivered and the OP owes a refund or replacement.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 03/11/2023 13:54

Kwasi · 03/11/2023 12:56

When you select the safe place option with Royal Mail, you have to agree to the terms and conditions, which include the recipient taking full responsibility once goods have been delivered. It is not on you or Royal Mail to compensate her.

As multiple people have said, RM make a habit of choosing a random place to leave the item without consulting the recipient and claiming it as a ‘safe place’. Mine have been left on my doorstep in full view of passers-by. Others have had it left in their bin on bin day.

I’ve checked - I have no safe place chosen. RM is just picking one themselves.

gemma19846 · 03/11/2023 14:03

Yes thats right. If it goes missing its the seller that has to prove it was/wasnt delivered or refund

Tambatamba · 03/11/2023 14:18

Jadeybabez · 03/11/2023 09:01

Op I wouldn't refund without a crime reference number. Tis the season to be ripped off unfortunately 😞 xx

I agree with this. I would definitely offer to send a replacement rather than giving a refund.

Mamabear48 · 03/11/2023 14:41

If it’s been delivered to a safe place specified by the buyers Royal mail account themselves they have to tick a box saying they accept the responsibility of it being delivered to a safe place. If they didn’t do that and RM left it anyway then it’s Royal Mail who should compensate but I’m pretty sure you would have to refund and claim from them not the buyer. Or like you say it’s probably a scam to get their money back lots of people do it but then I would defo be asking the buyer for a police reference number and if they are genuine they will do it if not you know

saffronsoup · 03/11/2023 14:41

Who determined the safe place? Was the buyer also communicating with the courier?

RM should have sent you (the sender) a picture of the delivered item. Did you get that?

MrMucker · 03/11/2023 15:04

It's not about who's actual fault it is or whether she's lying. It's about distance selling regulations, which mean you have to keep all communication from the buyer, refund them and then claim the loss from the carrier. You could also pass them your buyer's communication. You wont be refunded the sale price, but the price you paid to acquire or make whatever you sell, so yeah you end up taking a bit of a hit.
Tbh I'm a bit surprised that you appear to be running a business ie "selling stuff from own website" but you don't know the regs. Apologies if I'm wrong mind.

northernbeee · 03/11/2023 15:10

They will need a crime number for you to make a claim - you don't need to refund them immediately at all. You have fulfilled your order, a crime has been committed (allegedly) - yes a minor crime but it is theft. If they're trying it on, asking for a crime number may make it magically appear. Royal Mail won't give you the full amount the buyer paid, they will give you the materials cost - yes its pretty sh*te for sellers online!

Islandgirl68 · 03/11/2023 15:11

When I had sold something that had got lost in the post, I refunded the customer and claimed back from Royal mail. But your item was delivered, and put in safe place. So as far as I can see yiu have fulfilled your contract. Also if the customer had suggested the safe place and it was left there, neither you or Royal mail are liable. Its just shitty bad luck.

CitizenofMoronia · 03/11/2023 15:12

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 15:25

The customer selected this option at checkout.

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you don't GIVE them the option, a signature is to cover YOU not the buyer, especially if you offer Paypal as a payment type.

Debtfreegoals · 03/11/2023 15:17

Former Etsy seller here, I had to put the claim in with Royal Mail if something went missing. However, I would offer a replacement instead of a refund. Most people would want a replacement and not a refund if it was legit