To think these are correct table manners or am I just a snob??

[Justintime3]

I was raised with strict table manners, yet I have never been sat at a table with anyone who has the same table manners I do! Are these over the top?

This is what I was taught

1. Do not eat until the person who cooked sits down (excused if the chef says you can start)
2. Do not eat until everyone has their food in a restaurant (excused if the person without their food says you can start)
3. Chew with your mouth closed and do not speak with your mouth full
4. Do not take calls or use your phone at the table. Excuse yourself if you need to
5. Put your knife and fork together at the front of your plate when you are finished
6. Offer the last serving of XYZ to the table before you take it
7. Thank the person who cooked and offer to clean up
8. Elbows off the table
9. Tear bread into small chunks to eat in a restaurant, don't bite off the whole roll

10. Use cutlery correctly

• index finger on top of your knife and fork
• spoons for soup and dessert only. Spoon the soup from the farthest side of the bowl
• load food onto the back of the fork with your knife. (No 'shovelling' as my mum called it)

My mum's always been really strict on it and is the type to point out people's bad table manners so I've always followed these to a T. Thoughts? Is this over the top and I'm a snob, or are these just normal to expect?

Because of how I've been raised I can't help but be put off when I see someone without these manners.

Just keen to see how others were raised!

You don't know what you don't know.

If you've not been told to out your cutlery in a certain way to signal that you're finished, why on earth would you ever google it to find out. It just wouldn't occur to you that it was a thing.

I have a disability which means that I can only use one hand to eat. It wouldn't be particularly visible if I was sat in a restaurant, it is not as if one arm is in a sling or one arm amputated, I just cannot lift that arm to put a fork to my mouth. I would hate to feel that you lot were judging the way I eat in a restaurant. Perhaps I ought to hang a big sign around my beck saying I'm disabled and can only use one hand to eat?

Yes, we all follow these rules, except for the soup one.

I hadn’t read the full thread when I posted this, but then scrolled up and lo and behold! - someone three posts up had declared that people shouldn’t judge table manners in case someone has Parkinson’s!

Yes normal table manners - but I don't tear my roll into small pieces. I like butter on my roll. And at home if I have peas and they are not being served with something mushy (that they will stick to) then I will turn my fork over to collect them. The difference is that I recognise that both these actions are sub par. I would rather not have a bread roll if I'm not having butter, and I'm certainly not going to tear a buttered roll.

I was brought up by a hardcore etiquette Granny who had worked in service and expected every meal to be served as if Lord and lady doo dah were present. Truthfully, I found most of it a faff, but I follow most of the list in the OP, so it obviously had an influence.

I find it much more comfortable to put my elbows on the table when chatting, between courses though.

I also read once that the royals scoop their peas. I have no reference to check if this is true, but have happily adapted the rule.

My bug bear is restaurants where young staff haven’t been taught that cutlery at 5:25 means I’m still eating so get your mitts off my plate.

Those are just fairly basic manners!
My in laws are American , and they actually asked me why I used my cutlery ‘like that’ ie knife in right hand fork in left, at one of our 1st meals out.
they either break their food up with their fork in their right hand or cut their meat into pieces, then put the knife down and use their fork in their right hand to eat. I found that so odd at first.
They don’t wait for others, just dive into the food, dip whole rolls in sauce,- they all do it.
In Europe they’d be rude but there it’s just a casual way of eating.

I'd be all right then. I'm left-handed and frequently eat something with just a fork in my left hand, if there's no need for a knife or a spoon to be involved.

No one would be judging you for that.

Table manners are there for people around the table. That means people you know well enough, so likely know you have a a disability.

and it’s about consideration for everyone- some people are really sensitive about noisy eaters, sloppy eaters etc. the cutlery rules are really just to ensure that people get food in their mouths and not all over the table!

and good manner extends to not judging others ( simply because you don’t know about hidden disabilities)

No one is policing you in a restaurant. I have never once in my life even noticed the table manners of other diners ( unless they are incredibly loud)

Exactly. Tell you what - we’ll have a dinner party where everyone is welcome regardless how you hold a fork and they can have one where they argue about how to eat a bread roll :-) I know which one I’d rather go to!

The loaded use of “shoveling” for the fork use is snobby. I would be interested if there are any objectively good justifications to support it.

To me it makes as much sense as blindfolding yourself for dessert or using the fork for soup. The only good reason I can think of is to limit your consumption of peas as they contain too much sugar.

I was brought up with these rules as well but I would judge someone who is so absurdly sensitive that they "cannot bear" to see others eating with a fork only much more harshly than anyone who doesn't use cutlery "correctly". Get over yourself.

Looking down on others is what's truly ill-mannered.

Of these rules, 1-7 are basic politeness, give or take that in some cultures slurping food is deemed polite.

The rest, who gives a shit about elbows on tables or "shovelling" with a fork. If those stemmed out of practical considerations then it makes no sense if they're not flexible enough to encompass different practical considerations, such as yes, "shovelling" peas is simply the most sensible way of eating them.

Subpar? Why? There is no logical reason whatsoever not to eat peas by scooping them up on a fork rather than trying to get them to stay on the back of a fork. A fork is quite obviously designed to be used either way.

The business with the roll baffles me. What on earth is the problem with just taking a slice of bread or a roll, buttering it, or not, as the diner prefers, and just eating it by picking it up and taking a bit, putting the uneaten back down on the plate, repeat till finished - in the same way one would eat a sandwich or a piece of toast? I certainly don't crumble those. How is it in any way disgusting or inconsiderate to other diners to do this?

Someone upthread referred to taking a bite out a shared piece of bread. I can't say I've ever sat down to a meal with others and not had my own slice of bread or roll. Surely nobody would pick up a loaf, nibble it and put it back for others to have a go at?

I had always wondered how anyone manages to eat rice tidily with chopsticks, so it was something of a revelation to me when on holiday in Indonesia, to see a group of Chinese tourists in the next lakeside chalet, simply holding the bowls up to their mouths and shovelling it in with chopsticks.

If people are sensitive about noisy eating, that’s their problem. In any case, can you explain how the way you hold a fork makes any difference to how loudly you eat your food? I use my fork like a shovel and manage not to get food all over the table: is this a miracle or is it just that it actually makes no difference except in the narrowest of minds? Don’t try to justify this bullshit.

They are normal table manners but sadly like all types of manners are not always followed nowadays.

I consider those normal manners yes.

Why do people on MN write 'snobby' when they mean 'snobbish'? Is it snobbish of me to notice that?

But some people are sensitive about noisy eating because they have sensory issues/ ASD etc etc…it’s the classic refrain on here!

you may be able to deftly shovel food into your mouth, but many don’t. If you’re teaching kids how not to catapult food everywhere, the cutlery rules are useful.

Personally, I’m terrible for eating with my hands, have eaten with mouth full…the lot!

but I hate this bashing anyone who dares to suggest that manners are important- everyone seems to think it’s people being ‘narrow minded snobs’, but in fact manners are about considering other people. That’s not batshit!

and it’s about consideration for everyone- some people are really sensitive about noisy eaters, sloppy eaters etc. the cutlery rules are really just to ensure that people get food in their mouths and not all over the table!

But the cutlery rules aren’t about that. If they were people wouldn’t be being snobby about ‘shovelling’ rather than using the unpromising side of the fork.

It’s not all about consideration. Etiquette is carefully learned ways of making it obvious who doesn’t ’belong’.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/snobby

Perfectly normal modern usage.

OK I am a snob then.

Who made the rule about the bread bun?
I could understand years ago when a loaf was placed in middle of table. And people would tear a piece off. But even if I placed a loaf of bread in middle of table. It would be sliced.

See I'm also following a thread about playing music in public with no headphones - terrible manners because it affects other people. I think the purpose of a shared set of manners that are widely understood is to make life more comfortable and easy for everyone. But some people think it's about proving their own superiority and looking down on others. Really, it makes no difference to anyone if someone uses the front or back of a fork. Pretending it does makes you pompous and insufferable, which is worse than scooping soup forwards instead of backwards. Your dinner table conversation must be severely lacking if you're paying attention to that in the first place!

I don’t think it’s the rules that make OP (and others) snobby. It’s the judgement of others that do that