To think women should support other women more

[Moonshild]

As I get older - I'm early 50's - I have noticed quite how unsupportive women can be to each other and I think we all need to change this.

Generally married women and women in relationships have a smug unsympathetic air about them towards single women/parents.

I can't decide if it has always been this way or is just getting worse.

Doing things on your own - with a partner in the background - is VERY different to doing everything on your own with no partner.

Regardless of how unhelpful many men can be - there is someone there when you come home after work and to share the costs of life.

If you have no one you can be very much alone and I see so many women being unsympathetic to their single friends on so many levels.

My own experience is that I am divorced with two grown up children. I have been on my own since separating - I have made a few attempts to date but have found it both stressful and depressing.
I divorced because my ex was emotionally abusive and despite the fact he has a new partner - continues to attempt to get at me through our children. I am still helping our children to emotionally deal with him.

Most of my friends are in couples. But I find it increasingly hard listening to them discussing the events they are going to/ organising both with and without partners. I am rarely included.
They know my situation, they know I am on a low income in an expensive area and no I probably could not afford to do a lot of the things they do BUT it would be nice to be asked and have the choice to say no.

So that I don't become a complete hermit I go to the local pub for a drink once a week. I used to work there so feel comfortable to go in alone.

I am fully aware that there are lots of women alone out there like myself but what I have noticed more and more is that these women become more and more isolated.
When I was first separated - I noticed that women stopped inviting me to parties etc because I was deemed a threat - as a single woman and having spoken to other women they have experienced the same thing.
I DONT WANT YOUR HUSBAND/PARTNER.

This should not be happening - what is wrong with women? No one knows when they might end up in the same situation - have some sympathy and give some time to those women who struggle on regardless.

We might put on a good front that we are fine but I can guarantee at least 90% shed tears regularly because:
We are lonely
We are worried about paying rent and bills
We are struggling to deal with our ex's
We are trying to support our children - whatever their age - emotionally
We need a hug or someone to care
We are struggling with our emotions

If you have a single female friend - don't tell them how they should be improving their life - its easy to offer advise and make decisions in a relationship:
Just listen to them
Invite them for coffee
Call/text them
Don't look at them as a threat to your relationship
Just include them even if they say no

But mainly be KIND - you might be them one day

Are you one of the single women or are you just assuming that from the outside the single women are enjoying life?

We all make the effort and we all put our best foot forwards, so it's not like you can tell from the outside.

Obviously not ruling out that there's some happy joyful content single older women, why wouldn't there be?

Are you one of the single women or are you just assuming that from the outside the single women are enjoying life?

Neither, I'm extremely close to all of them - close enough to know how much they're loving life.

However, I was a single woman in the past who was loving life and I still am, even though I'm no longer single.

Life is what you make it and I don't believe anyone owes me sympathy or support as part of some 'sisterhood' thing.

Not at all - I don't like them! I wouldn't want them to like me as don't stand in allegiance with rude nasty bitches who bully one another and other people as their baseline language. I'm in the group for the actual class itself now and even so I'm perfectly polite in all interactions and refuse to allow them to dent my cheerfulness.

It would be a terrifying situation if a person thought they were the 'normal ones' and wasn't sure how to get them to accept or include you though. They made an outside group event once and did invite me but I politely declined. I was wondering why they want to hang out with each other never mind me to whom they've only ever been consistently hostile and hateful. Made me kinda laugh - do emotionally abusive people imagine that others are keen to hang out with them for more of the same?

But it was an education / observation and I did start to worry about the theory that women can get nasty as they get older due to less hormones. I have decided to not accept that view as being my reality! Also, I do believe that instead of asking others to 'be kind' what one does is ramps up the kindness one gives out (because it's part of my 12 step programme teachings).

Not at all - I don't like them! I wouldn't want them to like me as don't stand in allegiance with rude nasty bitches who bully one another and other people as their baseline language.

Fair enough. However you then go on to say ‘what about sisterhood?’ It cuts both ways.

The argument of the OP is that other women should be friends with her just because she’s a woman. Shouldn’t that then be the case with these women that you should be more tolerant of them?

Well this is heartening to hear. I'm not the OP but I jumped on this thread as I kinda related.

I do agree life is what you make it and my question would have more been 'how do I make better quality friends and new social structures as a single woman over the age of 50'? (for me, I have urgent health issues that prevent action at the moment - now that's tricky as life isn't what I make it as I can't 'make it' if you see what I mean but it's something that will be resolved).

I do think women should stick together as we have a common problem - we live in a global patriarchy where we're permanently on the back foot. IMO. Also we have very specific and shared bodily, physical, and emotional issues that men simply don't go through. A huge part of the 50s for most women is menopause for example. A lot of young women bond over the experience of pregnancy, birth, and child-rearing. As someone who hasn't done that myself, I think it makes me a bit 'outsider' and a bit 'other' to a lot of women. But I'm not alone in this.

I just do take personal inventory and acknowledge my life situation and contemplate how to make positive change. In my vast experience, as the OP noted, a lot of other women aren't 'up' for friendship for whatever reasons. Therefore the obligation becomes to find the ones who are whilst also learning the skills to tolerate the difficulties of alone-ness if one is feeling lonely.

Unbelievably since I bitched about them on here, I still do feel this is a sisterhood issue. Something very twisted has happened to these women that they've ended up in this life stance. Hence I am actually kind as heck to them in reality and relentlessly cheerful and helpful to them even though they're nasty. Cos I feel that if this is the weak game they have to play to make themselves feel empowered that it's a pathetic situation and I feel some form of female empathy for that plight. Nobody healthy and happy and functional thinks that the best way to make oneself happy is to put another person down. They are nasty. I see through their nastiness.

You need new friends. Most women are kind and couldn't care less if you're single. It's just unfortunate that yours do. Are there still groups like gingerbread where you can meet other women in the same situation as you?

I hear you but why would you be so mean to the OP?

Why wouldn't you give some guidance and clues as to how to build up a better situation, since you're one of the people who are also an older single woman?

What you've written here is an exact example of what I myself (who is not the OP) have sometimes experienced when trying to make new friends - this 'well I'm alright jack and you're defective' oneupmanship. That's literally what you just did, you called the OP 'miserable' and explained how you're fine. Do you not see that that is quite a cruel interaction coming from a defensive stance? What are you defending against? Someone honestly saying 'hey I'm struggling here and could use some pointers' is how I read the OP.

Why didn't you make some suggestions or explain how you set about improving your friendship circle or making new friends?

Noone sees you as a bloody threat.

Women supporting women is usually trotted out by women who blame other women for something. Case in point. Join some clubs, make new friends. What stood out to me is that you say noine thinks to include you even when they are not including their partners. Thats not them thinking you're a threat, is it?

Exactly that’s my point. I can say I hold no negative opinions on women who don’t have children. But I can’t say they don’t face them elsewhere.

But deciding you must face more stigma that other when you haven’t been in that position is very insular thinking

I would say in the same way as anyone who is not a single older woman with no children cannot know the stigma that unfolds over time in friendship circles - it is very real.

Is it? I’m a single 50-year-old with no children (both by choice) and I haven’t noticed it being an issue so far. Maybe I’m moving in the right circles.

It's not true imo that women over 50 don't want to make friends, some may not, but often as they are divorced, widowed, have a grumpy husband (or even a nice one) and kids have gone to uni or left, this is an ideal time to get out and meet others. Good ways to do that are choirs (hugely popular and full of middle aged women), the WI, walking groups, hobby groups on MeetUp, church, volunteering, or goback to some of your friends earlier in life and reconnect with them. U3A, local talks, travel holidays, that age group are active. It doesn't mean you won't feel lonely or fed up but you won't be reliant on couple friends inviting you to their dinners if they don't seem keen.
Sometimes groups in education or a workplace or elsewhere can be bitchy or bullying but in the examples above, this is quite rare I would say.

I agree with your point.

However, it's not the 1950s any more. People don't have their babies removed and put in the mental hospital for being unmarried. People don't be shunned by the whole street because there's no bloke living in the same house and them and their infants.

In the same way us older single ladies aren't ducked in the nearest lake.

However there is still nuanced prejudice and difficulties for all people in all circumstances and I agree that it would behove me and everyone else to only speak of their own personal circumstances / lived experience. I've never had a child and can barely imagine anything to do with childbirth or parenting or the whole shebang TBH. I suppose vice versa it's a specific situation to be a woman who has become older and has never had a child (because didn't want one, not some tragic circs) and then find that ones older age experience is a bit set apart from others. Half my best friends are already dead and I'm only 53 (cancers, suicides, drug / alcohol issues, and accidental deaths mostly) ! I mean that's a 'thing' in and of itself. Honestly, there's so much to becoming older being single.

I meant I fully believe the person who posted about being bullied, occasionally you do meet a bad dynamic group and the best thing you can do is get out if you can or ignore, bit hopefully in your personal friendship groups this should not be the case.

I just want to say, I agree, my crappy adult education bunch of bitches is the rare instance not the common one. In fact they're so remarkable I'm going to undercover surveillance them to look for clues of what not to do and how not to be!

I did not call the OP miserable. And I was not "mean" (are you 2???) - the OP presumed to speak for 90% of women and I told her that she did not speak for me. Disagreeing is not being "mean". You seem to make a habit of doing nothing except attack others, so your opinion on me or anyone else is hardly worth having. I am not required to counsel the OP (or you). She presumed to speak for 90% of women, and that is not a sustainable or evidenced statement. I do not need to be kind to anyone simply because they exist. Perhaps you have "sometimes" (your word) experienced some of what the OP has described - that does not mean that the OP is correct, nor does it mean that it is what everyone experiences or experiences all the time, and nor does it mean that I, or any other woman, has to be friends with people simply because they are a woman.

All you have done is pontificate on why you think that women should all be friends with each other and support each other, for no better reason than sex. That is bullshit.

You literally said 'sorry you appear to be miserable'.

Anyway you're not someone I would ever discourse with so bye...

I’m 33 and been single for four years now. I feel the happiest and most confident in myself I’ve ever felt in my adult life.

I don’t need the help/sympathy/approval from married/coupled up women. Especially when there are so many women who are in bad relationships and probably need a dose of self respect themselves.

You appear to do an awful lot of what you would never do....

I did not CALL the OP miserable, I said they APPEAR to be miserable. Try looking up the definition of miserable - it means "wretchedly unhappy or uncomfortable" when used as a descriptor rather than a noun.

Thank you for actually understanding exactly what I was trying to say.
I don’t expect anything of other people but I invite people over and to meet up but it doesn’t seem to go both ways and at the moment I’m a bit fed up with it.
I’m actually quite shocked at how unpleasant some of the responses have been but it also shows that sadly the world is not a very kind place

I’m not sitting back waiting - I go out and socialise as much as I can.
But I do seem to always be the person trying to organise things.

it’s frustrating

Thank you that was all I was trying to say

@JFT say I think there is still quite a bit of stigma towards single mothers and divorcees, but yes older single childless women too in my opinion. It’s not the same for single dads at all of course… I agree the stigmas have reduced significantly compared to a few decades ago but they’re still there, more in certain social circles. For example I am from a relatively conservative Christian circle, I definitely feel the stigma of being divorced and a single mother there.

I am totally with you on the concept of a sisterhood. We face so many difficulties as women that men just do not.

I think part of the issue is that each of us experience a different set of challenges depending on our circumstances and personality. For example it does not surprise me that someone who is a widow does not experience the same sense of social exclusion; this is a totally different set of circumstances; I am not envious of widows as they have a horrible set of problems of their own, but I do wish people would reach out as much to people after divorce as much as they do after someone is widowed. And also to their permanently single friends. If people are totally happy with their lives and don’t feel they want or need any support or social contact that’s great but I can’t see anyone being offended by someone genuinely reaching out to them in a caring way to check in with them that they don’t need anything from them. Thanks to the pp who has reflected and is able to see that in hindsight their divorced friends were probably finding life very tough and could have done with more support.

When I have done single parent holidays in the past, they’ve been great but it does usually end up dividing into those who are divorced, those who are widowed, and those who have never been married (sometimes this includes a 4th category of those who have chosen to become single mothers from the outset). We all have some things in common but we are better able to relate to each other within those groups.

I did go on a solo traveller holiday once shortly after I split up with my ex (I left the then toddler with my parents for the week), which was also great, but people were shocked that I was a mother! I was the only one who wasn’t single and childless, other than one person who had been widowed very young. I think it was called Friendship Travel. You should check it out! OP too. There was a nice balance of sexes there too.

I also agree with some of the suggestions for getting to know people put forward by a pp, but the problem is they are often pretty much exclusively female groups, and if you would ideally like to meet a possible partner as well as some new friends, it’s nice to have a more balanced group.

I’m honestly in awe of people who are so super happy with their single lives and I’m genuinely interested in what makes them so happy to be on their own and how they meet their needs for some sort of social life. I’m sure personality and also circumstances have a lot to do with it. I’m from N Ireland originally and have moved around the U.K. a lot, I’m quite envious of a local single mum I know who has all her childhood friends and family members living right round the corner for example. I still keep in touch with school and uni friends but they are all over the place these days, particularly my single never married childfree friends who all live in other countries these days. I have plenty of friends but not enough local ones. It is harder to make friends later in life and I think that women who are juggling a job, small children and a husband often literally just don’t have time or energy or headspace for friendship. It’s sad but I am seeing a bit of that finally returning in some of my friendships as our kids become teens. I’m hopeful that later in life they’ll be freer to hang out more again.

I'm single and have been for the vast majority of my life. I had a good friend (male) who was also single and we were often invited to things as a pair to trips or dinners, but when he got a girlfriend, my invitations to those sorts of things stopped (although I still saw people individually, or at bigger gatherings like pub nights or barbecues so I don't think it was anything personal against me) I think it's a numbers thing. I think people like to invite couples over or out for dinner but don't want a 5th wheel. It sucks, particularly if you haven't changed anything you are doing.

That said, my children are very young and I have a good support network of other mums in the area. A lot of my social life now revolves around playdates with the children with the mums I get in with most so I don't feel particularly lonely. I'm aware that this may change as the children get older and playdates start to be without the parents.

@Moonshild some of us definitely get it. I’m so sorry your ex is being a dick even now and that several of your friends have died at a time where you really could have done with them while also grieving them. I hope you find a way to make new connections locally. Look largely to connect with other divorced single mothers is my advice. I felt a lot less alone with everything once I’d done that.

I think a lot of people basically went into batten down the hatches mode with their families during the pandemic and I don’t think that mindset has completely shifted yet. I agree some responses here have been pretty harsh and probably a reaction to in their eyes being asked to do yet another thing on the endless todo list and #bekind to yet another group of people.

TBH I think the whole population is just ground down at the minute without much empathy or resilience left after the series of Brexit, the pandemic, Trussonomics, and the cost of living crisis. I see it at work every day too, people are just at the end of their tether and super irritable and stressed right now. Mumsnet has always been a bit of a viper’s nest but never more so than now, but I don’t think it’s personal.