To think women should support other women more

[Moonshild]

As I get older - I'm early 50's - I have noticed quite how unsupportive women can be to each other and I think we all need to change this.

Generally married women and women in relationships have a smug unsympathetic air about them towards single women/parents.

I can't decide if it has always been this way or is just getting worse.

Doing things on your own - with a partner in the background - is VERY different to doing everything on your own with no partner.

Regardless of how unhelpful many men can be - there is someone there when you come home after work and to share the costs of life.

If you have no one you can be very much alone and I see so many women being unsympathetic to their single friends on so many levels.

My own experience is that I am divorced with two grown up children. I have been on my own since separating - I have made a few attempts to date but have found it both stressful and depressing.
I divorced because my ex was emotionally abusive and despite the fact he has a new partner - continues to attempt to get at me through our children. I am still helping our children to emotionally deal with him.

Most of my friends are in couples. But I find it increasingly hard listening to them discussing the events they are going to/ organising both with and without partners. I am rarely included.
They know my situation, they know I am on a low income in an expensive area and no I probably could not afford to do a lot of the things they do BUT it would be nice to be asked and have the choice to say no.

So that I don't become a complete hermit I go to the local pub for a drink once a week. I used to work there so feel comfortable to go in alone.

I am fully aware that there are lots of women alone out there like myself but what I have noticed more and more is that these women become more and more isolated.
When I was first separated - I noticed that women stopped inviting me to parties etc because I was deemed a threat - as a single woman and having spoken to other women they have experienced the same thing.
I DONT WANT YOUR HUSBAND/PARTNER.

This should not be happening - what is wrong with women? No one knows when they might end up in the same situation - have some sympathy and give some time to those women who struggle on regardless.

We might put on a good front that we are fine but I can guarantee at least 90% shed tears regularly because:
We are lonely
We are worried about paying rent and bills
We are struggling to deal with our ex's
We are trying to support our children - whatever their age - emotionally
We need a hug or someone to care
We are struggling with our emotions

If you have a single female friend - don't tell them how they should be improving their life - its easy to offer advise and make decisions in a relationship:
Just listen to them
Invite them for coffee
Call/text them
Don't look at them as a threat to your relationship
Just include them even if they say no

But mainly be KIND - you might be them one day

Maybe it’s your attitude of insisting what other people must do that’s stopping them from inviting you to things.

Wanting invitations to things you can’t afford, which others know you can’t afford, so you can decline is also peculiar. Many people would find that incredibly awkward and patronising.

If you want to socialise with these people invite them to yours for a meal, arrange a walk and take coffee, make an effort to initiate things.

Expecting long running sympathy for being single is weird. I’ve been divorced and skint and living in a tiny crap flat. No one appeared to see me as a threat to their marriage or stopped inviting me to things. A few friends fell by the wayside, I chose to walk away from others, but the majority were supportive and inclusive and I continued to invest in those relationships. It doesn’t happen by itself.

“Women” are not a homogenous group of people who owe each other anything. You’re talking about 51% of the population. No woman owes another anything because she’s got a bloke and the other hasn’t. It’s so old fashioned!

@Moonshild I am also a divorced single parent following an abusive marriage and I identify with a lot of what you say. As do 36 percent of people who’ve voted so far so I don’t know why people are saying nobody else feels this way.

In my case I’m not sure that other married women see me as a threat so much, but more that it’s awkward, it changes the dynamic at a dinner party etc as a pp said. So you simply don’t get invited.

I also think that lots of married women with kids simply have no time or energy for friendships, or they are just a bit thoughtless and don’t try to put themselves in your shoes. Or if they try, because they feel so frazzled themselves it actually sounds lovely to them to be on their own all weekend no kids etc. If I had a pound for every time someone said something along those lines to me when my child was younger I’d be a millionaire “oh lucky you, to have the whole weekend to yourself, I’d love to have a weekend without my kids”. They didn’t know that I’d often spend it in bed crying and missing my child. And I’d give anything to be them. That makes me sound super pathetic and I’m really not but it was the reality as I was so depressed at the time, partly because my ex was dragging me through court constantly and it was just endless nastiness and accusations and it wore me down so much. I didn’t want to be the poor single mother who isn’t coping and I could see that people weren’t able or willing to deal with me not being ok anyway, so I pretended I was fine.

I think people completely underestimate how difficult it is being a single mother, and going through a divorce especially if there are child custody issues and especially if there was abuse. Nobody understands how difficult that is, especially in a society that still sweeps domestic abuse under the carpet. Unless they’ve been through it themselves people don’t really understand. I’ve found it much easier to find new single parent friends who get it, even if our experiences aren’t exactly similar, we have enough life experience in common to be able to see below the surface level of how someone really is rather than glibly say “oh how lovely to have a weekend without your kids to do whatever you like”. Or “oh I’m functioning as a single parent this weekend as my husband is away” (no you’re not because it’s for one weekend not the rest of your life, also you know you have a partner who loves you at the other end of the phone and guess what you also have your partner’s income towards the household so it’s really not like being a single parent at all).

OP I advise trying to meet some other single mothers. Maybe try Frolo or a single parent holiday company etc (that’s where I met my main single mum friends!)

I am still lonely a lot of the time, and it would mean a lot to me if my married friends would sometimes invite me over for dinner or out on a walk with their family. But I think a lot of why they don’t is simply them thinking (if they think of me at all and I suspect lost people just don’t because they have their own busy lives) that I don’t have my own husband or child this weekend to drag around the park so why on earth would I want to go to the park when I could be doing something nice/fun. They don’t understand that everyone else is also hanging out with their families so I have nobody to go and do nice/fun things with. Other people are right as well that the married friends I have aren’t super close, because I moved to this area at the height of the domestic abuse and between suffering that, getting away from that and dealing with the aftermath, it was very hard to get to know people properly, especially as most people don’t eg want to bring their kids to a play date at yours when they know there is a risk of your ex turning up and being aggressive and having to call police etc. It’s so difficult.

I agree nobody owes it to us but it would be nice if people would just be a bit more mindful that their single friends could be struggling and reach out to them. For the single people on this thread who are doing fantastically and don’t want to be patronised or pitied that’s great. I don’t want to be patronised or pitied either but I would appreciate social invitations being extended to me more often.

But you're a woman, therefore #BeKind babes

yep- I am eye rolling so hard at this thread.

Not all single women are lonely, unhappy and "poor", not all married women are happy, carefree, or privileged. But yes, lets lump all women together as some monolith and bemoan how unkind they all are (esp the married ones!).

I’m sorry you’re having a hard time, but honestly you sound like you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

This was not my experience as a single parent, and although it’s not something I’ve discussed with my friends who were/are also single, we talk about loads of aspects of our lives. So I think if it was a common theme, we’d have touched on it over the years.

Not being invited to events sounds like it’s far more related to your seeming lack of interest (doesn’t sound like you’ve actually asked about joining them, or arranged it yourself) or to your income. You say it’s nice to be asked - how do they know you’ll feel like that, instead of feeling like they’re being insensitive rubbing your nose in it?

Married women are not, as an entire class, smug. I wasn’t when married, I didn’t find them so when single for many years, I am not now that I am married again.

How often do you reach out to your friends - single or married - for the coffee you suggest?

I was a hell of a lot more lonely in my first marriage than single.

I think your post should actually be titled 'Aren't my friends shitty?'

Most of my friends are in couples. But I find it increasingly hard listening to them discussing the events they are going to/ organising both with and without partners. I am rarely included
They know my situation, they know I am on a low income in an expensive area and no I probably could not afford to do a lot of the things they do BUT it would be nice to be asked and have the choice to say no

I'd never ask someone on a low income to do something I could easily afford because thats pretty damn insensitive isnt it? then you'd be saying they were being insensitive by inviting you to things they know full well you cannot afford to do! Bloody hell, people cant win can they- if they dont ask theyre wrong, but if they do ask, you cant do it anyway and then it upsets you.

I am really sorry you are struggling at the moment but a big factor in this is placing your happiness in other people's hands. If you want to spend time with friends doing relatively inexpensive activities then arrange something- a nice long walk, a coffee in a local coffee shop for a chat, a night watching a film with some inexpensive wine etc These are all things you could initiate rather than passively sitting back waiting for an invitation. I'd be happy to do something inexpensive with my friends if they suggested it because its their company I enjoy, not how much money we spend.

Stop telling us what we should/shouldn't do. This is your struggle to deal with

This.

I'm happily married. Yay. Go me.

That doesn't mean I skip through life without a care in the world. I have my own shit to deal with...dc, job, money, caring responsibilities, life. I have other things to think about and my key focus won't be prioritising all the single women I know and 'including them in everything' 🙄

Sort your own life out if there's some aspect you're not happy with.

And on the subject of married/coupled up women generally feeling 'threatened' by single women - this isn't a thing. And nor do the vast majority of single women I know think this. However, there are a small amount of single women who I've come across who due to their own low ego and persecution complex, seem to invent a 'reluctant seductress' character for themselves to play, then try to project that onto others. Which is both sad and pathetic - so don't be one of those women op.

Same here! I'm happier than I've ever been alone than with a partner.

Before Covid I had a lovely group of friends that I socialised with but they are spread out and unfortunately 4 of my close friends have died for a variety of reasons in the last 4 years so I am just struggling to find my place again in the world

That’s awful that you have gone through so much loss in such a short time, I’m sorry to read it.

But… doesn’t it undermine your points?
It sounds like you’ve been divorced for a while, so those 4 friendships were created or continued post-divorce? So your current situation isn’t because of smug marrieds not thinking of you - but because of a particular set of very sad circumstances impacting your social circle.

I 100% agree with your sentiments.

I'm a single woman in my early 50s living in the city centre. So, turns out maybe my life choices that I thought were so cool and empowering have ended up a bit lonesome in terms of social connection and close friendships. OK fair enough I can accept the reality of that and 'work' to keep cheerful and keep engaged with people. However, massive setback was a health issue meaning I can't function much until after a big surgery.

Something I notice in my female friendships however, is that they're not really 'there' at all. They're not interested in companionship for the sake of company and connection. They're mostly trying to manoeuvre and manipulate into a situation (often with a man at the middle of it) which I find odd.

Also I started attending my local college as its so easy to get to and just for fun and engagement. Most of the others are slightly older women, retired age. Most of them have husbands / ex husbands and adult children. But the thing that side swipes me is how mindblowingly rude, argumentative, one-upmanship, provocative, disharmonious, selfish, and offensive they are in their interactions. As if they take great pleasure in being hostile and unfriendly and snooty - and they're like this to each other and everyone, not personal to me. So I disengage and turn a blind eye and don't let it bother me as a coping mechanism. They have made it clear they think I'm 'odd' or 'different' just because I'm a cheerful easygoing friendly open person. I don't care. But WTF happened to sisterhood or feminism or just plain old being nice?

It's making me feel afraid to be an older woman. I've read that loss of reproductive hormones can be to explain when women become angry and intolerant in older life but frankly I think it's down to personality. Shouldn't we all just be trying to be as supportive to another human being as we can in this difficult life? None of us have it easy any more, life is so hard for everyone. Being cheerful and friendly doesn't cost anything

I’m going through a divorce with a bully. It’s a very hard and emotional time for me. I have noticed that the people that are really there for me are the ones who are going through/have had the same experience. I’m still at the stage that being alone is a relief.

As a married women, I heard of other friends going through a divorce. They were mostly the wives of my husbands friends (military). I regret that I didn’t reach out to them more. Because I didn’t hear any thing bad from them directly or indirectly, I foolishly thought they were ok and the divorce was going smoothly and both partners would be looking forward to their new lives.

I now know things are so different. I was so ignorant. Many people have difficulty understanding a situation they haven’t been through themselves. Even people who think well of themselves (like me).

It takes a very good friend to stay the course. They can often only do this when they have time and the emotional resilience themselves. Mumsnet is the place where you can easily see people in marriages/relationships who are just about surviving even if things look ok on the outside.

I don’t agree with some of the things in your post, although I feel a similar thing is happening to me ‘at the moment’ But my feeling is this is temporary and once my divorce is settled and I can move away from my current situation, it will change.

Maybe the thing that has irritated some posters, is asking women to be kinder to other women. I feel women are already the kinder, more compassionate sex with already unfair expectations on them.

Im sorry for your situation, but I generally think older women are often the kindest of all.

There's a huge difference between being a solo parent and being a single older woman living alone with no children.

It's not about whining or self-pity, there's many millions of women in this situation and IMO what the OP is trying to express is the difficulty of that lived experience. Many, if not most of my friends are single women a bit older now and I can assure you that the pain of living alone and having less than ideal social support and solid friendships is very difficult.

Obviously it's something to work on but frankly the unkind hateful responses from the people who aren't even in the same situation as the OP (or me) calling them miserable and a downer etc are a straightforward indication of exactly what the OP is describing. You're not in the same situation, it's not your lived experience.

But the thing that side swipes me is how mindblowingly rude, argumentative, one-upmanship, provocative, disharmonious, selfish, and offensive they are in their interactions. As if they take great pleasure in being hostile and unfriendly and snooty - and they're like this to each other and everyone, not personal to me. So I disengage and turn a blind eye and don't let it bother me as a coping mechanism. They have made it clear they think I'm 'odd' or 'different' just because I'm a cheerful easygoing friendly open person. I don't care. But WTF happened to sisterhood or feminism or just plain old being nice?

Yes but what you've described is a bunch of nasty cunts and that's about personality, not 'sisterhood' or 'feminism'.

Women can be cunts as much as men, so why bring feminism into it? It really does smack of 'You're a woman so be kind'.

No, you're a human being, so try to be kinder to people who deserve it.

Hmm, in my experience most single women would find it quite insulting if I acted like I pitied them or treated them like they were somehow missing out because they're single.

I'm sorry you've had negative experiences but not all single women are miserable and struggling, and I think it'd be incredibly patronising to treat all of them as if they are (or must be) because they have no partner.

The single friends I have are happy, vibrant and fun, and I would be doing them a disservice treating them like they're made of glass. Of course I'd be there for them if they reached out or needed it, but assuming they're unhappy and need support just because they're single would be presumptuous and unkind of me! I'd also be insulting both them and my husband if I assumed 1) that any of them are after him (though they're welcome to fancy him, he's very fanciable) or 2) that he'd run off with any of them if they offered!

Honestly sounds like you just need better friends.

Your point seems to be all other women are dreadful - why don’t they like me.

But there is a huge stigma to being a single older woman, most especially those of us who never had children.

There is no longer a stigma to being a solo parent or being a divorcee with kids, these are entirely different situations.

Eh? I can't relate to your post whatsoever op. I love being single. And I really don't think I'm one of the only 10 % you made up! 100% of the single divorcees I know love it. I'm sorry you're not invited to parties, but that hasn't been my experience at all. On the contrary, I actually get quite defensive if anyone dares suggest I might be unhappy single.
I've learnt that the only question to ask anyone else, should you need to find out their state of mind, regardless of their relationship status, is to enquire if they're happy or not. Not project management our own feelings on to them.

I support all women. It's swings and roundabouts though. Single independent women, also scoff at women who have joint finances/have a husband who's the main earner. I support women having choices.

But there isa huge stigma to being a single older woman, most especially those of us who never had children.

In your circles perhaps but certainly not in mine.

There are tonnes of single older women who are enjoying life. Without even thinking, 4 that I know come to mind straight off the top of my head.

Hmm, I think this might be an issue with your social circle.

We have a few divorced/separated people in our circle and I don't think anyone would see them as a threat! We're in our 30s and 40s.

I think regarding being invited to things it depends on who is making the arrangements and what the friendship dynamics are. DH and I had our friend who was going through a divorce over at our house and on nights out loads. We all got on great.

However there are a couple of other people in our circle that we wouldn't extend the same type of invite to for several reasons - they're very difficult to be around/insist on changing all
plans to suit their preferences/are CFs when it comes to splitting bills/paying for things.

So I don't think you can generalise on any of these scenarios

I'm a lone parent, my main tip is don't socialize in all couple groups, you will feel left out. Socialize with your friends for lunch, cinema, do fun stuff, my friends are nearly all female and love to go out without their partners, or don't have one. I also go out with a longstanding group of mums and also in a hobby group which is mixed, no issues there.

I agree if everyone socializes as couples, men clustering together, women likewise, its difficult if you are the lone person, but that's very old fashioned, go out and meet interesting people and hang out with them individually or in a group.

I don't want pity invitations ever, rather sit in by myself.

How would you know what stigma single parents face?

Not sure how you can insist women in your situation face stigma and write off others, when you have no experience of it?

You are totally right, they are actually nasty c*nts. Theyre rude to the tutors, the cafeteria staff, the college staff, and one another. I observe and pity them.

I have sex segregated them as I'm in one other group that's mostly older men and everyone gets along just fine and there's no weird bitchy asides or strange disruptions. Also I often hang out with younger women I know (between ages 30-40) and they're not at all like this. The ones in relationships, sadly barely ever see.*

It was quite an eye opener to me when I realised, wow I'm not actually going to make any type of pals in this group of women. But it did make me wonder... what's happened to them. The only things they all have in common is they're fairly privileged (ie financially well off) all white and British and over 60. So yeah... I'm swerving them... not as a demographic but this individual set of women.

*would point out in general that as people are so stressed these days, time is short for everyone, money is tight, work hours are long, therefore women I know who have jobs and a partner, I barely see them. In their free time, naturally, they want to be with their partner. And that's the ones who don't have kids. But genuinely they do not invite you round or want to hang out. I suppose realistically they don't have the time or inclination.

I don't know what stigma a single parent faces in the UK in the 2020s this is true. I was raised by a single parent (father) in the UK in the 1970s and I wasn't aware of any stigma except our circumstances were dire as he was neglectful and abusive, the fact he was a solo parent wasn't an issue as far as I know for him or for us kids.

Anyway you're right, I don't know. Any stigma against solo parents these day is not something I am experienced in.

I would say in the same way as anyone who is not a single older woman with no children cannot know the stigma that unfolds over time in friendship circles - it is very real.

I can't say that I have experienced any of what you describe. Honestly, I think the issue here is partly you and partly your "friends". I am a widow and have been for nearly 20 years. He was the love of my life and I have never wanted another one. But I have a rich and fulfilling life, I have female and male friends both married / in partnerships and not, I am not lonely but nor am I frightened of being alone ( I often love it), not do I worry about bills etc. I recognise no part of what you are saying. So I'm sorry you appear to be miserable, but do not presume to speak for me or many other women. You don't.