This kid really is annoying but my cousin wants support. AIBU to deny it?

[AxioCheese]

My cousin has a 9 yr old son. He's sweet but really annoying. Constantly jiggling up and down, interrupting conversations and trying to join in when he can't do whatever it is.
My cousin says he is being bullied at school because other kids won't play with him and say he is annoying.

Obviously I'm not there but it doesn't sound like bullying. Just that they are normal kids who want to play with their friends and not be interrupted all the time.

My cousin is upset because I won't take her 'side' in all this.

Should I pretend I don't notice the way he is and just give her moral support? My family think I should but it feels wrong. AIBU to stick to my guns?

Also in case it is relevant he's been assessed for ADHD and hasn't got a diagnosis.

Isn't this the very nature of school?

Maybe its time to ruffle feathers though?

I think there is a lot of emphasis on ND kids to fit in, which is fine if its not about hiding their disabilities and nowhere near enough focus on NT kids accepting ND children.

Time to change the rules a bit, I feel.

It is tough. I wouldn’t say anything, you won’t get nowhere

My dc had a classmate who had poor play skills. Their mum was desperate for help and my dc is usually mellow so we set up some play dates back and forth. Every one was pretty bad - they picked arguments with each other, the other dc went through my dc’s things and moved and touched things my dc asked them not to. Then took down a plastic box with a crystal in that dc had “grown” with a belated grandparent - my dc told the other child to stop, but the other cold shook it and smashed it. My dc cried.

I asked my dc to forgive and so my dc tried to let the other child join in with their friendship group at school. Over and over again it went wrong, other child bossing the group around , crying over made-up injuries. The other child’s mum said her dc wanted an “exclusive” best friend. Ended up with other child pushing my dc over and kicking them repeatedly in the stomach.

At this point I said to other mum I thought we should probably not push the friendship as it wasn’t working and our kids stayed apart.

i felt genuinely really sorry for the other child who didn’t develop the play skills of the age group.

Stick to your guns about what? You make it sound like this is all having a big affect on you.

OP, I don’t think you get it. But please bear in mind that it’s possible to be ‘annoying’ and be bullied. Your cousin is worried that her child is being damaged. You should focus on that and not just write him off because he has irritating traits/behaviour.

@SpudleyLass

It's fine if you want to ruffle feathers with the potential result that no one wants to be friends with you.

I wouldn't advocate anyone using their child to make that point.

We also do not know that all the other children are NT, chances are they're not. Some of them may well find the Op's dn's behaviour difficult because of their own disabilities.

Let's give an example. Dd was born without her hand. Should she have to put up with, in your book, the children who grab her arm and squeeze it, or who pull her round to get a better look, or who won't stop pestering her with questions even though she's asked them politely three times to stop asking. We've had to go home from places and events because of children who won't leave her alone. I'm talking about 8-10 yos, not toddlers.

I suspect you'll say she shouldn't have to put up with it?
Often the child(ren) involved clearly isn't NT. Does that change it?
No it doesn't. It's unacceptable for her to have to put up with it from anyone. And she's had that sort of thing surprisingly often, perhaps even more surprisingly often the parent is standing right by watching and not saying anything.

But if no one tells the children involved that it isn't the right thing to do, then how do they know? If they haven't realised it by 8yo, then really they need telling rather than expecting dd to put up with it.

You would spend longer with a child who didn't understand fractions explaining in different ways, and support them as they struggle with them, giving them practice.
In the same way a child who struggles with social interactions needs extra help.

Turning it round and saying the other children need to learn to be more tolerant is not going to help long term. Would you want to work with someone who constantly interrupted you? You might understand it's part of a condition, but I'll put bets you'd still find it irritating and you wouldn't choose to socialise with them.

I don't think it's fair on the child to expect everyone else to adapt to them. Because at some point they will come across someone who won't, whether for their own SEN or because they don't see why. And then the child will be left not knowing what they've done wrong. That's not fair.

For WIW I have this exact set up in my family. I give a sympathetic ear to my cousin but I agree with you on a lot of points.

I know i will get backlash but I would love to know how kids are supposed to navigate these issues at school. We teach the kids to be tolerant and play with the child that seems lonely or a ‘bit different’ from you, but what if they just don’t want to, because as you said previously, they are playing football and one child keeps taking the ball.

I am genuinely wondering from parents with children with ASD are we actually saying that kids can’t get annoyed with some behaviour and not want to play with that child as it spoils their enjoyment of an activity or they actually just don’t like that child.

I see so many posts on FB basically asking parents not to exclude the child that seems a ‘bit different’ (I’ve used this term as that’s what my friends with ASD children say) but at some point children should be allowed to make their own decisions about the friends they keep.

I've lived too long seeing the NTs getting preferred for everything.

Change is a coming, I believe.

Is the issue that your cousin doesn’t recognise that her son is annoying and believes he is being bullied. She wants your support but you feel she needs to acknowledge his behaviour to move forward and help him?

My DGS has very little spacial awareness and he said no one would play with him at school as they kept telling him to go away. My DIL observed him and realised he was standing very close to his peers and they were saying move away. They basically wanted him to step back not go away, there was no exclusion, no bullying.

Is your cousin working with the school around his behaviour and social skills? There must be some concerns if he’s actually got as far as assessment because the waiting lists are long.

Not all annoying kids have SEN, in my line of work I am stunned by how many parents jump straight to SEN without looking at their own parenting skills, environment and boundaries. I also think this default to SEN makes life a whole lot more difficult for children who do have SEN, their parents, schools and the professionals around them.

To clarify further, I hover over my child knwong what her limits are so she doesn't ''bother'' any child who can't tolerate disabilties.

I know for a fact the reverse isn't true. My nephew, who I adore for his own character, is intolerant of my daughter and has made ableist comments towards my daughter.

His parents do nothing. I have explained autism to him but he still makes these comments.

Hence, the ruffling of feathers comment.

ND parents are generally expected to put up with it whereas I find NT parents don't like it when they or their children are acknowledged as intolerant.

Ironic.

Oh and as Westminster continues to push for ALL SEN children pretty much to be in mainstream schools, I would say there is very much an onus on NT children and their parents to teach their children as much I need to teach mine socials, to accept they also need to adapt their tolerance levels for those that are different.

I will not apologise for saying I don't believe that NT children are doing the same leg work.

Exactly this. And FWIW the school don't think it is bullying either but cousin keen to blame them/ other students and looking for moral support.

but cousin keen to blame them/ other students
is she a very passive parent or does she model manners and decent behaviour or does he do what he likes with no guidance from her?

How involved is your cousin wanting you to be OP?
Is your child at the same school? Is she wanting you to email the school in support of her complaint? Because that would be a step too far for me.

What I’d probably do is sympathise, acknowledge how tricky children’s friendships can be, how it’s unkind to exclude people, and how hard it must for her son. But I would make positive suggestions about how he could try and behave, in order to make the other children more likely to include him. I would take the approach that it’s better to put energy into improving the situation, rather than complaining about it and leaving it to someone else (ie the teachers) to try and improve. If all the kids wore blue and my child was excluded for wearing red, I wouldn’t campaign for red-dressed kids to be included. I’d start dressing my child in blue to fit in. Maybe that’s capitulating but sometimes the end justifies the means.

One thing is for a child or several children not to want to play with a certain child but bullying is when they bring pressure to bear on others not to play with that child.

NT children should have to accept having their space invading, be made to play with children they don’t like and even in some cases being attacked all in the name of inclusivity?

Not all SEN should in normal school, especially if they pose a risk to others which I have witnessed multiple times. One size does not fit all.

Yes.

He is a bit quirky, funny and sharp. He is also frequently very annoying, full of irrepressible energy, constantly questioning and interrupting and (it seems to me) quick to cry if he doesn't get what he wants.

Tbh you are describing my 9yr old here... he's NT I believe (I have older ND kids). I'm hoping it's his age as he's a pain in the butt right now. He isn't 'bullied' at school although can often seem on the 'outside' has lots of acquaintances but no best mate... I think my DS is bored... he's top of his class ir thereabouts constantly and lacks the work to stretch him, and he needs more exercise.. this is a kid who swims 4/5hrs a week, parkruns, lots of drama classes etc. He just has too much energy (and he eats like a sparrow!) I wish I had his energy!

My dgd was being bullied in one school, so my dd removed her and sent her to another school where she is accepted and loved by her peers. Sometimes the solution is that simple

You sound like you buy into hierarchies way too much OP. You're probably not the right person for your cousin to seek advice from. No.

No.

Bullying involves coercion.

Cousin beliefs her child’s exclusion is bullying: children believe child’s unwanted attempts to control the game is coercion.

By all means offer your empathy, but it does sound like Cousin needs some guidance from the school on where her parenting may need to improve.

An ND label would have absolved cousin from the truth, which may be that she is failing her NT child.

I've been outside a parent teacher conference when one set of parents were moaning about a SEN child irritating their daughter (I know, my kids' school really needs to work on that). Didn't want their child to be encouraged to play with said SEN child.

I also know they've complained when Princess Perfect struggled socially further up the school (because kids do turn on each other) because SHE now had no one to play with and the school weren't doing enough in their opinion to encourage friendships.

As the parent of one child who is your DN. And one child who is Mr Popular, I've seen school from both sides.

Exclusion in any form, to anyone, is bullying. So yeah, he might be annoying to you. But kids need to learn there will be people in life they don't need to LIKE (and believe me, that hurts too) but they still need to behave in a way that is respectful and that isn't socially unacceptable (i.e. ganging up on one kid)

A ND label would have absolved cousin from the truth
It's a diagnosis, not a label.