Page 9 | To ask if you work in a university have you noticed a recent change in student behaviour?

0987ghj · 2023-10-26T10:26:19+00:00

I graduated from university in 2019, and have now returned to study a different course. I've noticed a big difference in student behaviour and I wondered if it's something that university staff have also noticed or if it's just my course. I'm hoping that this thread doesn't seem like I'm trying to slate current university students/gen Z. A few of the examples I've seen are from mature students, so I don't think it's generational/an age thing. There's a lot of talking now during lectures, people just talking loudly whilst the lecturer is talking (not even whispering). It's pretty brazen and full on conversations, not just a quick question or comment, and really distracting. People are often late quite a lot, there's routinely a few students who are 40+ minutes late to a 2-hour lecture. I know there are some reasons people may be late such as childcare issues, or traffic or illnesses like IBS that make it hard to leave the house in the mornings so that might just be why, but it's a lot more lateness than I ever saw in my degree before. There would be the occasional person 5-10 minutes late, but not 40+ minutes. People also start packing up and starting to leave before the lecturer has even finished talking. Our lectures always finish slightly early to allow time to walk to other lectures so there's not really any need for it. I don't remember this happening before, unless it was because the lecture had ran over and even then people would quietly/subtly pack up.

FarEast · 27/10/2023 12:19

Dabralor · 27/10/2023 12:09

@FarEast I remember having exactly the same convo with myself at uni too- I had to pretend I wasn't so shy and just crack on. It was hard but also just part of me growing up.
I do worry that, if I were young now, I'd self diagnose with social anxiety and just lean into the medicalisation of my shyness.

Yes, exactly @Dabralor !

And I think, gosh, what would I have become? Someone who relied on a diagnosis, and never challenged myself?

Ahsoka2001 · 27/10/2023 12:21

YANBU, I've just finished my MA (I did it straight after my BA so I studied at uni from 2019-this year) and experienced all the same issues you just outlined. ESPECIALLY in the MA.

You're not at Portsmouth by any chance were you? If not then this is probably a widespread issue across universities :( Sucked to feel like I was back in Year 11 again.

Ahsoka2001 · 27/10/2023 12:27

Aldicrispsareshit · 26/10/2023 21:35

People in general are more selfish. Look at the news/past threads about theatre behaviour

Theatre behaviour? Oh bloody hell, you just reminded me -

I went to a press night at the National Theatre last month and there were people coming in late with phone torches on, walking over people to find their seats.

Mate, if a PRESS NIGHT at the NATIONAL THEATRE in CENTRAL CENTRAL LONDON with tickets costing up to £65 or whatever it is isn't safe from this behavior then nowhere is!

Ormally · 27/10/2023 12:33

Complete the sentence; "I'm paying for this, so..."

"...I can do what I like!"
or
"...I want to get the best value by learning as much as I can!"

This still isn't without its potential traps though.
Since the change to having lectures delivered online, several universities I know of have kept the option of recording everything, cementing both a remote, 'watch-on-demand, and an in-person option (I don't mean hybrid).

If someone cannot make a lecture, or thinks they won't lose by: being unwell and missing the odd lecture; coming very late, leaving early, or being distracted in the middle, the assumption is the 'catch-up TV' kind of mindset, which is disruptive to the live version, and which requires the recording to be available too. Yet the gathering of recorded content would come under "getting the best value", not missing a minute but designing your own degree according to your very individualist attention span and whatever you do alongside being a student. Students consuming this learning fall on a spectrum from '(over) anxious about achievement' to 'Don't give a shit'.

FaintlyInglorious · 27/10/2023 12:46

PictureFrameWindow · 26/10/2023 20:02

Students are having to work to make money, attendance is having to take a back seat, assignments are clearly suffering.

I worked all the way through my degree and it was free then!

The two people who got firsts on my course (both young women) practically worked full time too.

dreamingbohemian · 27/10/2023 13:07

FarEast · 27/10/2023 11:33

I think, for me @dreamingbohemian the problem is that I've seen a big increase in mental illness/health issues, and the documentation of the accommodations is sometimes not aligned with our subject benchmarks and learning outcomes. I tend to think that a lot of ordinary struggle - learning is difficult, we must not forget that! - is pathologised & medicalised. Things like "social anxiety" are over-diagnosed, I suspect. I think - indeed I know from teaching for 30 years - that there are far more accommodations now required, often for things that really are over-medicalised. I'd say about a third of my 1st year intake has some sort of required accommodation. It's starting to have an impact on what & how we teach.

And I speak as someone who was very shy in some life/fun-limiting ways until I was in my early 20s, when I decided I needed to get over myself - it was NOT easy, but it was essential to grow up! And in terms of my university learning, I was clear with myself that being almost pathologically shy was never an excuse for non-participation.

I think that students are far less well-prepared or university than 30 years ago.

Edited

Show quote history

A lot of my colleagues would agree with you that ordinary struggle is pathologised or over-medicalised, they are constantly moaning about today's 'snowflakes'. I just don't agree. The students I have supported are not faking or gaming the system, they have genuine issues and I don't see any problem with accommodating them. So what if they need an extra week to do an essay? I'd rather we gave some accommodations than exclude a huge number of people from going through university and having access to the opportunities it gives.

I say this as someone who, in hindsight, had PTSD and depression during uni, with no support or accommodations because that didn't really exist back then. Yes I made it through. I suppose you could say it was character-building but it was also extremely hard and probably damaged me a lot. I'm glad students today have more options.

Gymnopedie · 27/10/2023 13:11

AfterWeights · 27/10/2023 08:15

There's an element here that sounds like an extension of the behaviour problems in schools where no one imposes any real consequences any more

Make attendance required. Have it disclosed on transcripts that are provided to future employers.
Fail them if they don't attend. Take registers.
Don't give extensions without documented extenuating circumstances eg a bereavement or hospitalisation.
Make deductions to the grades of the students talking in lectures.
Only make recorded lectures avaliable in special circumstances.

Its a myth that these students are paying for their courses. Most won't pay back the debt. Its not right for the taxpayer to be funded them to fuck about for 3 years

Make attendance required. Have it disclosed on transcripts that are provided to future employers.
Fail them if they don't attend. Take registers.
Don't give extensions without documented extenuating circumstances eg a bereavement or hospitalisation.
Make deductions to the grades of the students talking in lectures.
Only make recorded lectures avaliable in special circumstances.

Yes of course. And tell them to stop talking or you'll ask them to leave, don't allow students in who are nearly an hour late for a two hour lecture, don't explain to the students what they should already know but don't because they haven't done the reading (taking time away from those who have), etc...

Good luck with getting management to support you when you do, when their focus is on retention and achievement because their funding is dependent on those things. (The crieria for funding is a whole other issue.)

RampantIvy · 27/10/2023 13:18

On the WIWIKAU Facebook page a lot of parents have asked how necessary it is to attend freshers week, usually because they have booked a family holiday or there is a family wedding to attend. Many replies are to the effect that all they do is party all the time, which IME simply isn't true.

In my daughter's case they had introductory lectures where they covered things like referencing, plagiarism, attendance, expected behaviours, academic expectations, deadlines etc. Also in DD's case it was to get all the lab equipment and protective wear she needed and to familiarise the students with where everything was.

I wonder if a lot of these badly behaved students skipped these introductory lectures?

FarEast · 27/10/2023 13:20

Good luck with getting management to support you when you do, when their focus is on retention and achievement because their funding is dependent on those things. (The crieria for funding is a whole other issue.)

And the raking over the coals you'll get (and your whole Department) of students moan about being disciplined etc in the NSS.

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 13:23

RampantIvy · 27/10/2023 13:18

On the WIWIKAU Facebook page a lot of parents have asked how necessary it is to attend freshers week, usually because they have booked a family holiday or there is a family wedding to attend. Many replies are to the effect that all they do is party all the time, which IME simply isn't true.

In my daughter's case they had introductory lectures where they covered things like referencing, plagiarism, attendance, expected behaviours, academic expectations, deadlines etc. Also in DD's case it was to get all the lab equipment and protective wear she needed and to familiarise the students with where everything was.

I wonder if a lot of these badly behaved students skipped these introductory lectures?

All three of mine were the same.
Missing freshers would have put them at a severe disadvantage.
Different units were explained so they could make the choice prior to the start of the course.

For all three, different unis and different courses, there were lectures on the basics during freshers week. Like yours the science courses did intros in lab safety, explaining the machines etc.

Its not all just party party

AreYouShittingMe · 27/10/2023 13:29

SlowDog · 27/10/2023 08:41

"The sense of entitlement started when the fees increased, and general cost of being a student went through the roof. Suddenly, instead of working together, students became customers- disrespectful, arrogant, entitled customers."

It's not a sense of entitlement though is it? If you're paying through the nose, you are entitled to get something good for your money. If I had been paying this much when I went to university I wouldn't have so easily accepted it when things were not right and teaching was not of good quality.

But that's the frustration. Students are paying for a service, and rather than engaging in the service and making the most out of it, they are late, disruptive and at times appear unable to cope with the course requirements. Of course they should be getting a good service, but degree level education involves being active in the process. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. But when the horse is paying for the water and refusing to drink it does seem baffling to me. I've an undergraduate and two postgraduate degrees. All involved some sort of sacrifice (financial/ personal etc). But I have benefitted career wise from my education. Why go to Uni and pay all that money if you aren't willing/ able to get the most out of it?

user1497207191 · 27/10/2023 13:39

I do think a lot of the problems stem from the aspirational aim of getting 50% of school/college leavers to go to Uni. Quite simply 50% aren't capable of a Uni education at that age, and 50% of jobs don't need a degree. Unis have had to expand massively to cope with the influx and their resources are stretched to the limit.

Of course, it's good to be aspirational, but not at the expense of the other options, i.e. workplace learning, apprenticeships, trades, and of course, the virtual removal of further education for adults which makes it harder for older people to career change.

The crux is probably far too many people going to Uni who don't need to and aren't really suitable for it.

Gymnopedie · 27/10/2023 13:40

Why go to Uni and pay all that money if you aren't willing/ able to get the most out of it?

Because some (quite a lot of) students - and it explains a lot of the behaviour and attitude seen on this thread - DO see it as a way of putting off having to work and having three or four more years of partying and drinking and yes, drugs. And those students usually don't care about the fees that 'they' are paying because that's another attitude that they have, that they will never pay it back.

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 13:52

Gymnopedie · 27/10/2023 13:40

Why go to Uni and pay all that money if you aren't willing/ able to get the most out of it?

Because some (quite a lot of) students - and it explains a lot of the behaviour and attitude seen on this thread - DO see it as a way of putting off having to work and having three or four more years of partying and drinking and yes, drugs. And those students usually don't care about the fees that 'they' are paying because that's another attitude that they have, that they will never pay it back.

Assume you’re talking about money given to them by their parents.
Money from student finance is taken out at source from the April after you finish your course once you are earning over a certain threshold. Students never see it in their ‘pay packet’. It’s taken just like tax and NI.

Of course some will move abroad and some are 60yrs plus so won’t necessarily pay a penny back,

Gymnopedie · 27/10/2023 14:09

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 13:52

Assume you’re talking about money given to them by their parents.
Money from student finance is taken out at source from the April after you finish your course once you are earning over a certain threshold. Students never see it in their ‘pay packet’. It’s taken just like tax and NI.

Of course some will move abroad and some are 60yrs plus so won’t necessarily pay a penny back,

Show quote history

Sometimes parents' money. But it's about the threshold you mentioned. They believe that EITHER they won't earn enough to have to pay it back OR have no intention of getting the sort of job that would mean they would pay it back OR believe it will be a very small amount OR just ignore it.

Bouledeneige · 27/10/2023 14:12

To be fair when I went to university in the 80s I regarded it as an extension of growing up, independence, partying and having fun and putting off getting a proper job. I did all of those things but worked when I needed to and got a good degree that enabled me to study abroad to get a masters afterwards. I also worked in my holidays to pay for the only holidays I would get as I no longer went away with my parents (who even went to the Carribbean to stay with my sister who lived there without taking me). I never afforded to visit her. At that time of course i didn't have a loan as a much smaller minority went to university.

A difference I noticed though when studying in the US for my masters was that because they paid for their degrees the US students were much more motivated to ensure they got their money's worth. They mostly were highly motivated to study, and challenged the 'service' they received if they thought they weren't getting their money's worth. They often had jobs and hobbies like sports which they were equally motivated about. They seemed more concerned about their future employment prospects (perhaps because they have less of a welfare state safety net to fall back on?).

US Universities ran regular student satisfaction surveys and responded to the results (though this seemed to drive sone grade inflation compared with grading here). It's interesting that our student loan system hasn't had the same effect and that 'market forces' don't seem to be driving a more demanding and motivated student culture.

But I'd hesitate to criticise young people now. I was pretty silly and university was a growing up experience.

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 14:12

Gymnopedie · 27/10/2023 14:09

Sometimes parents' money. But it's about the threshold you mentioned. They believe that EITHER they won't earn enough to have to pay it back OR have no intention of getting the sort of job that would mean they would pay it back OR believe it will be a very small amount OR just ignore it.

Edited

Show quote history

Blimey!
Are some really that delusional?!

Autumnvibes23 · 27/10/2023 14:14

All2Well · 27/10/2023 10:20

Whilst I appreciate that every university is different, I'm fed up of seeing posts about online lectures.

For myself (and actually my colleagues and friends who taught across a number of universities in my part of the country);

All learning went online from March 2020 until the end of the Academic year. Which for my course was the end of April 2020. That's the only time all learning was delivered online. Just over two months.

From September 2020, we did socially distanced hybrid learning at my old place of work, at my current place of work they did entirely face to face (except for when two huge outbreaks caused the course to shut down temporarily). At my old workplace, all seminars and small groups were in person and tutor led with windows open, 2m distance, masks except most students declared
themselves exempt and extra hygiene methods, most individual tutorials were online and most of the huge lecturers were online although at first we had to split the year group into bubbles, repeat the lectures several times and deep clean and air the room in between but this was unsustainable. The university insisted we did 70% of teaching face to face as we were a practical course. As soon as the government advice changed from "work from home" to "work from home if you can" we were in, in person,
even though we were in a Tier 3 area. It was a nightmare to carry out as staff kept catching covid from the students (who'd often attend knowing they had covid or symptoms of covid) or contact tracing would essentially shut down the course for a while. But we were not teaching "entirely online for years" as people often make out.

This is now the 3rd full Academic year that learning has been completely back to normal, ie 100% face to face.

Ironically, attendance was far better when it was hybrid or online, possibly because we were all in lockdown and there was nothing better to do.

While that is the case at your university it just isn't the same elsewhere. My DS isn't at Uni but a College and when he applied for the course we were told it would be 90% f2f. But it isn't. It's half remote and half in college.

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 14:16

Bouledeneige · 27/10/2023 14:12

To be fair when I went to university in the 80s I regarded it as an extension of growing up, independence, partying and having fun and putting off getting a proper job. I did all of those things but worked when I needed to and got a good degree that enabled me to study abroad to get a masters afterwards. I also worked in my holidays to pay for the only holidays I would get as I no longer went away with my parents (who even went to the Carribbean to stay with my sister who lived there without taking me). I never afforded to visit her. At that time of course i didn't have a loan as a much smaller minority went to university.

A difference I noticed though when studying in the US for my masters was that because they paid for their degrees the US students were much more motivated to ensure they got their money's worth. They mostly were highly motivated to study, and challenged the 'service' they received if they thought they weren't getting their money's worth. They often had jobs and hobbies like sports which they were equally motivated about. They seemed more concerned about their future employment prospects (perhaps because they have less of a welfare state safety net to fall back on?).

US Universities ran regular student satisfaction surveys and responded to the results (though this seemed to drive sone grade inflation compared with grading here). It's interesting that our student loan system hasn't had the same effect and that 'market forces' don't seem to be driving a more demanding and motivated student culture.

But I'd hesitate to criticise young people now. I was pretty silly and university was a growing up experience.

I studied at an American Uni and my experience was very very different.
They rarely turned up, we’re very entitled and the standard was very low.
They were allowed to repeat units constantly until they got the grade they wanted.
In the 80s we weren’t allowed to do that.

Superscientist · 27/10/2023 14:19

My UG was 2006-2010 and my postgraduate 2011-2017 and noticed a big decline in students attitudes between my UG and the end of my postgraduate. The students just wanted to be told the answers and weren't interested in studying. My partner is an academic now he has noticed a decline in student attitudes since he started having his own students in 2015 and now it's with junior researchers too. The difference for us was clear between those that paid £3k a year to £9k a year. Students seemed to switch from being students to being consumers and generally their attitudes stank. "I'm paying to be hear" sort of thing completely ignoring that our dept was £7k a year deficit per student due to the costs not covering the cost of a science degree

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 14:21

Autumnvibes23 · 27/10/2023 14:14

While that is the case at your university it just isn't the same elsewhere. My DS isn't at Uni but a College and when he applied for the course we were told it would be 90% f2f. But it isn't. It's half remote and half in college.

Show quote history

my sons uni only started a mix of online / face to face lectures in academic year starting sept 2021
He still had some online into 22/23
All lab work though was from sept2021.

Gymnopedie · 27/10/2023 14:24

Blimey!
Are some really that delusional?!

Yes. But they don't care.

Autumnvibes23 · 27/10/2023 14:27

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 13:23

All three of mine were the same.
Missing freshers would have put them at a severe disadvantage.
Different units were explained so they could make the choice prior to the start of the course.

For all three, different unis and different courses, there were lectures on the basics during freshers week. Like yours the science courses did intros in lab safety, explaining the machines etc.

Its not all just party party

Show quote history

On my nursing degree the course started about a month before Freshers. So all the introductory stuff was compulsory. However, some people did go away during reading weeks, which I can understand because you don't get many holidays during a nursing degree, but they did miss out on the opportunity for extra practice in the nursing lab etc.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 27/10/2023 14:42

Gymnopedie · 27/10/2023 13:11

Make attendance required. Have it disclosed on transcripts that are provided to future employers.
Fail them if they don't attend. Take registers.
Don't give extensions without documented extenuating circumstances eg a bereavement or hospitalisation.
Make deductions to the grades of the students talking in lectures.
Only make recorded lectures avaliable in special circumstances.

Yes of course. And tell them to stop talking or you'll ask them to leave, don't allow students in who are nearly an hour late for a two hour lecture, don't explain to the students what they should already know but don't because they haven't done the reading (taking time away from those who have), etc...

Good luck with getting management to support you when you do, when their focus is on retention and achievement because their funding is dependent on those things. (The crieria for funding is a whole other issue.)

Show quote history

Interestingly, the school of medicine at my university do fail students whose attendance is lower than 80%. It works. They all attend.

Theoretically, the same rule applies to all students in the university but it is not implemented.

Once we were back on campus, I only made recordings available in special circumstances and now no longer make them available. My head of discipline did ask me to confirm I was providing recordings as we were required to do so. I asked him to point out where that was documented (it was documented as desirable, not required) and I heard nothing else. I get excellent attendance in comparison to those who provide recordings.

I have no problem giving extensions for reasonable reasons.

I don't explain to those who have not done the reading and I have been known to ask them to leave if the session is a flipped class. I do tell them they can come and join us once they've done the reading.

I do not tolerate talking in my lectures so they don't (caveat - I don't have very big classes).

It helps that I am reasonably close to retirement, get good student feedback and am in Ireland, rather than the UK where things appear to have gone to pot in terms of staff conditions for academics.

RampantIvy · 27/10/2023 15:16

I do think a lot of the problems stem from the aspirational aim of getting 50% of school/college leavers to go to Uni. Quite simply 50% aren't capable of a Uni education at that age, and 50% of jobs don't need a degree. Unis have had to expand massively to cope with the influx and their resources are stretched to the limit.

I agree. I think far too many young people go to university when other options would be more suitable for them.