To ask if you work in a university have you noticed a recent change in student behaviour?

[0987ghj]

I graduated from university in 2019, and have now returned to study a different course. I've noticed a big difference in student behaviour and I wondered if it's something that university staff have also noticed or if it's just my course.

I'm hoping that this thread doesn't seem like I'm trying to slate current university students/gen Z. A few of the examples I've seen are from mature students, so I don't think it's generational/an age thing.

There's a lot of talking now during lectures, people just talking loudly whilst the lecturer is talking (not even whispering). It's pretty brazen and full on conversations, not just a quick question or comment, and really distracting. People are often late quite a lot, there's routinely a few students who are 40+ minutes late to a 2-hour lecture. I know there are some reasons people may be late such as childcare issues, or traffic or illnesses like IBS that make it hard to leave the house in the mornings so that might just be why, but it's a lot more lateness than I ever saw in my degree before. There would be the occasional person 5-10 minutes late, but not 40+ minutes.

People also start packing up and starting to leave before the lecturer has even finished talking. Our lectures always finish slightly early to allow time to walk to other lectures so there's not really any need for it. I don't remember this happening before, unless it was because the lecture had ran over and even then people would quietly/subtly pack up.

I went from getting almost all 4's/5's on each question to getting a slew of 1's/2's

I hear you @Emotionalsupportviper For one tutorial, students had to give assessed presentations, but this one student (the only one) was consistently 30 min late walking in the middle of their presentations.

After several warnings, I told the student he’d get marks deducted for his participation if he continued to be late. After that he managed to be on time, but come student evaluation, there was a 1/5 (anonymously) rating for my teaching with a complaint that I wasn’t understanding about being late.

This wouldn’t have mattered to me, but our SMT takes all student ratings very seriously and it brought my overall teaching score down.

People have no idea how disruptive it is - to other students and to the lecturer - to have a session disrupted.

Not to mention having to recap because the offending student has missed vital points and keeps saying "What?"

I have had some feedback gems. One labelled me a "Karen" for my "weird grudge against ringtones."

Students have always had to work while studying. Not everyone got grants and certainly not full grants. Back in the 70s we all had part time jobs in term time and full time over the summer break. We did bar work, cleaning, waitressing, retail. There was very little university accommodation available and lots of people lived in cold, damp, grotty flats and houses. But a university place was considered a great opportunity for a future career and the majority of students knuckled down and did the work. I worked as a barmaid in the same pub for 3 years.

Have to admit, that is a corker, @Deathwillbebutapause !

I've had "I thought I would die of boredom, but apparently you can't", which I actually sympathised with. The topic was an important one, but deathly tedious for all concerned, including myself.

When at Warwick University in the late seventies a student entered the lecture hall late and the lecturer stopped what she was saying and made a sarcastic comment which really put down the latecomer. My son at Oxford in the eighties said the same think happened but the latecomer answered back in a mock apologetic way by saying in an exaggeratedly posh voice, “Oh I do apologise.” I think modern youngsters are brought up to think they are the centre of the universe and sometimes have not been taught civility. Not all of them of course. My generation perhaps suffered through being overly deferential to authority and too self- deprecating which often acted against our interests.

When at Warwick University in the late seventies a student entered the lecture hall late and the lecturer stopped what she was saying and made a sarcastic comment which really put down the latecomer

If I did that now, and the student complained, I would be admonished (at least) and threatened with disciplinary action (at most). We can't do it, much as we might wish to.

Several of my students have 'reasonable accommodations' which include lateness.

Oh I am sorry for future employers.

Problem is the chatterers complain about you if you ask them to be quiet.

if you don’t ask them to be quiet the non chatterers complain about you and tell you to tell them to shut up/keep better control as the chat is distracting them.

you can’t win!

I completely agree. I've been out of education for a while. However, I started my university degree in 2022/2023. I'm completely taken aback by the amount of students, both young and elder generation, who just seem like they're not bothered at all.

It's the same as your experience, walking in/out of class loudly, packing away items whilst the lecturer is speaking, having full blown discussions, laughing and talking over the lecturer, despite being asked to be quiet a number of times. Some people even falling asleep during class and not even hiding it. It's completely blown me away 😕

Of course students now are the “customers” and they are allowed to make dubious criticisms, sometimes vengeful, of their lecturers which would not have pertained in the past. I think it is disgraceful that lecturers have to be nervous of student feedback. The judgements of immature students should be dismissed.

This comes across as a little snobbish I'm afraid. The playing field isn't equal.

So achieving academically is snobbish? I've heard it all now.

Nope. Suggesting that students who don't achieve the highest grades/don't have the privilege of going to Oxbridge are worst behaved than those who do is snobbish.

It's not at all snobbish. In Ireland students get into courses based on a points system. One of the courses I teach on has fluctuated a bit over the years. When points are high, students are more diligent and attentive and thus better behaved.

It makes sense. If they've worked hard in school and achieved well, they are likely to continue doing so. And yes, I know not all students who work hard achieve high grades but nobody achieves very high grades without work. It just comes easier to some than others.

In our school we have cohorts with entry requirements ranging from the highest to the lowest in the (RG) university. There is definitely a correlation between entry requirement and engagement, and between (unsurprisingly) uni marks and engagement.

Obviously at an individual level some students with low marks will be fantastically dedicated, and some with high marks will be awful, but it is definitely easier to teach a high achieving group.

Agreed with the general sentiment, but with the addition that A-level grades aren't always the best or only measure. Plenty of very talented and driven kids on music/acting/arts courses with low academic grades!

But those students have presumably worked very hard at music/acting/art to get in to those courses and are simply continuing with that in the same way those on more academic courses who achieved well are continuing.

Yeah they're probably the most passionate and engaged students around!

The thing about being late, at our university if people have recommendations for reasonable adjustments this might mean that there is a statement in there saying people can arrive late and leave early and the lecturers shouldn’t draw attention to it. Firstly it’s practically impossible in a cohort of hundreds to know who has a learning contract and what it says and secondly if you comment to some students and not to others it would be clear who has a disability which is a breach of confidentiality. So you just have to let everyone get away with it, it sets out a culture of just coming and going as you want. In fact a friend did pull up some students for wandering in 45 minutes into an hour and a half session and they complained and she had to apologise.

I haven’t been at uni in a decade, but the difference between early 00s (UG) and 2010s (PG) was astounding. I was used to not even having powerpoint presentations in UG lectures - you made your own notes, nothing was provided to you for reference after. Students tended to group together with friends and compare their notes to build a bigger and better resource for exam prep.

I was 10 mins late once as an UG (slept in) and the shame as I walked in was something I can still feel when I recall it now.

By contrast, at PG level everything was provided - presentations and lecturer notes all online, everything recorded for later listening, lecturers would hold online study groups on portals, all sorts. So much chatting in lectures, lateness, ambivalence, students not caring. I was really taken aback by it.

I can’t imagine what it’s like now - must be horrendous. The quality of graduates coming through into the profession is definitely very poor - not in their academic skills per se but the soft skills. Their SPAG is shocking, they don’t seem to know how to write emails, and they’re abrupt and rude to other people.

In their defence- my students this year are lovely! RG uni. All very enthusiastic, I say all, probably two-thirds are anyway and if the others don't attend, that's on them and will reflect in their marks.

I don't tolerate talking in my lectures, if two people start whispering or chatting, I do the Hard Paddington stare and wait for them to finish. I only have to do this once or twice a term and everyone realises this isn't a lecture for chatting! If they are on Insta instead of listening to me, but quiet and not interfering with other's concentration, that's on them.

I also don't have problems with lateness, it's absolutely 5 min max and always with an apology.

I think students see how other students behave and so I set out my stall very early. I'm a very committed lecturer and give a lot to them in terms of my time and energy and in return I expect politeness, courtesy to other students and some engagement.

I feel this group has been so short-changed by Covid, a lot of them are keen to learn. I have had issues in the past with lots of emails about silly things, or the odd difficult student, but nothing unmanageable. I would not get disciplined unless I did something truly terrible though like was racist, so I do feel my head of education has my back.

I could not cope with the classroom problems of secondary for one second, but I don't generally have them, for which I am truly grateful.

I do think though, that quiet and no rudeness should be the standard for all classes, not dependent on the lecturer to enforce that, it's hard on newer lecturers. Again, the tone should be set at the top and any that don't do that should be visiting the Head of Education, just as poor/rude/unprepared lecturers should also be reported.

Yes we had some younger, less experienced lecturers being challenged on their marks last year - very inappropriately, referencing mental health and suicide etc. Our senior staff are extremely supportive and helped them deal appropriately.

But those students have presumably worked very hard at music/acting/art to get in to those courses and are simply continuing with that in the same way those on more academic courses who achieved well are continuing.

Exactly @OchonAgusOchonOh. So students who get lower academic grades aren't necessarily going to be worse behaved than those with high grades....

The comment that was referred to as snobbery said courses that were harder to get in to, not ones that required better academic results. Drama/music/art, generally require a level is skill to be demonstrated either via interview or portfolio. You cannot demonstrate that level of skill without having put work into it and they are therefore generally hard to get in to for anyone who hasn't the talent and put the work in.