To ask if you work in a university have you noticed a recent change in student behaviour?

[0987ghj]

I graduated from university in 2019, and have now returned to study a different course. I've noticed a big difference in student behaviour and I wondered if it's something that university staff have also noticed or if it's just my course.

I'm hoping that this thread doesn't seem like I'm trying to slate current university students/gen Z. A few of the examples I've seen are from mature students, so I don't think it's generational/an age thing.

There's a lot of talking now during lectures, people just talking loudly whilst the lecturer is talking (not even whispering). It's pretty brazen and full on conversations, not just a quick question or comment, and really distracting. People are often late quite a lot, there's routinely a few students who are 40+ minutes late to a 2-hour lecture. I know there are some reasons people may be late such as childcare issues, or traffic or illnesses like IBS that make it hard to leave the house in the mornings so that might just be why, but it's a lot more lateness than I ever saw in my degree before. There would be the occasional person 5-10 minutes late, but not 40+ minutes.

People also start packing up and starting to leave before the lecturer has even finished talking. Our lectures always finish slightly early to allow time to walk to other lectures so there's not really any need for it. I don't remember this happening before, unless it was because the lecture had ran over and even then people would quietly/subtly pack up.

But poor mental health in absolutely no way entitles you to be rude and disruptive. That isn't poor mental health it's poor coping skills and emotional immaturity. No amount of mental health support can fix this and no matter how you look at it it's simply not fair for the rest of the cohort

at 9k a year, I would do whatever I wanted.

And unless what you wanted was to study hard, you would fail.

Saw a decline in performance year on year from when I started working (non academic) in a university in 2015. Each year students were less capable and had less common sense. I left in 2021 so didn’t witness the full covid effect. Saying that, I work with business professionals now and the general level of entitlement, arrogance and stupidity has infiltrated the working world too.

Yes, agree with this. Fortunately I was on maternity leave for 2020/21 but heard it all from colleagues. Most wanted to teach in person but after a couple of hybrid weeks (very difficult to manage in itself) they weren't allowed for the rest of the year.

The following year was in person but with recordings - but some staff were allowed to teach online as reasonable adjustments for health conditions, the details of which obviously weren't shared with students. These were for the most part staff members who had been shielding the previous year, plus one or two who were pregnant and advised not to be in large classrooms. Not to mention those of us who were healthy all seemed to catch covid at least once that year, meaning we had to move online for a few weeks and then many of us had long recoveries after working through our initial illness at home with no break as there isn't really the opportunity for a break during the semester.

Agreed, but I was referring to the posts about students not doing work or coming to class because of anxiety and poor mental health, sorry I should have been clearer

I haven’t been a student for some time but have family members who were lecturers until fairly recently. I do think there has been an increase in disrespectful behaviour, however it’s up to the lecturer to draw the line. If people engage in unsuitable behaviour they should be asked to stop and if they don’t, told to leave. They may be paying through the nose but so are others who want to hear what’s being said without distraction. A case of shut up or get out imo.

Really? So you would have no respect for the lecturers or other students who have also paid a lot of money? What an ignorant attitude.

Complete the sentence; "I'm paying for this, so..."

"...I can do what I like!"
or
"...I want to get the best value by learning as much as I can!"

(This is a discussion that occurs in private secondary education, too.)

What a selfish attitude. Are you also one of those people who talks and eats noisily in the cinema/theatre because you've paid for your ticket so you'll 'do whatever you want'?

I think, for me @dreamingbohemian the problem is that I've seen a big increase in mental illness/health issues, and the documentation of the accommodations is sometimes not aligned with our subject benchmarks and learning outcomes. I tend to think that a lot of ordinary struggle - learning is difficult, we must not forget that! - is pathologised & medicalised. Things like "social anxiety" are over-diagnosed, I suspect. I think - indeed I know from teaching for 30 years - that there are far more accommodations now required, often for things that really are over-medicalised. I'd say about a third of my 1st year intake has some sort of required accommodation. It's starting to have an impact on what & how we teach.

And I speak as someone who was very shy in some life/fun-limiting ways until I was in my early 20s, when I decided I needed to get over myself - it was NOT easy, but it was essential to grow up! And in terms of my university learning, I was clear with myself that being almost pathologically shy was never an excuse for non-participation.

I think that students are far less well-prepared or university than 30 years ago.

This thread has sadly shown me why university was only for the minority. Not everyone, even exceptionally academic types, are equipped to be able to manage university life. You need to be a relatively balanced and resilient individual to get through and it's no shame to admit it isn't for you and find another pathway. Modern apprenticeships should be wider publicised, the open university should be utilised by more people. Going to university at 18 shouldn't be the only pathway that's encouraged by schools.

It's a shame so many schools and colleges like to brag about how many students get into Oxbridge and Russell Group universities as a means to get more students in. They should be boasting about how many students are successful in ANY work pathway.

Including talking over the lecturer and spoiling it for others?

@DrBlackbird Thank you, the signs are good so far, as he’s aced the assessments he’s already had, but obviously it’s still very early days.

Ironically, given some of the comments on this thread, he is also ND and has severe MH issues, but works really hard to not let those issues affect his attendance and work. He hasn’t had to leave a lecture or ask for extra time or additional support at all so far. As a pp said, you don’t just have provisions put in place without proper medical evidence and an assessment, so anyone that has a plan is genuinely in need of support and the rise in numbers of students needing that support is worrying. It was a very different matter for ds in secondary school and sixth form. Back then he did need to make regular use of his exit card, was unable to attend certain lessons and even unable to attend school/college at times. It’s taken a lot of time, effort and support for him to reach the point where he can manage his issues to have less impact on his studies. Again though, he is older and has had access to the support he needed to get him to this point. Not all students will have been that fortunate.

It’s not helpful for some posters to relate individual stories about a student who may or may not have been gaming the system. Just because they were seen in a cafe after leaving a lesson, doesn’t mean they didn’t have a valid reason for leaving. It’s not appropriate to judge the needs of those with invisible disabilities, maybe they needed to leave due to pain being caused by the seating, maybe they needed to take medication or eat due to low blood sugar, maybe they were struggling with brain fog. I have a dc who is a part-time wheelchair user and it’s tantamount to the same judgement they get on days they are able to manage to mobilise without it. I agree that mh is no excuse for rudeness or being disruptive, sadly though, panic/severe anxiety can cause either/both as a byproduct of their presentation during exacerbations. Not an excuse for constantly being late, not doing any work or talking over lectures though.

I think a dose of the reality of working in an entry level job and being treated badly was a massive motivator in ds’ case. That experience seriously affected his mental health and uni has been a breath of fresh air in comparison. He can also focus on the long-term benefits of achieving his specific qualification, which motivates him to want to work hard and succeed.

I do think there has always been an element of students that ‘enjoy’ uni perhaps a bit too much. I know some of dh’s friends were dreadful in their first year, barely rolling out of bed in time to get to lectures, constantly needing extensions, etc. That was in the late 80’s. My experience was very different to his, as our lecturers were frankly frightening if you didn’t pull your weight and there’s no way you would have wanted to rile them by turning up late or talking in class. Studying very different subjects might have had a lot to do with it though, as some subjects were easier to coast through than others.

@Aldicrispsareshit I wish we had a higher ed system which wasn't quite so focused on pushing students straight through from A Levels to university, and that primary & secondary education were not so focused on constant testing. I really wish there were the possibility for young people to step off this treadmill of constant push to achieve, and look about them a bit more.

This would mean the ability to defer, or work and re-enter HE at a later date. And, as you say, the use of apprenticeships in technical education. As a society we desperately need people with technical skills!

Probably mentioned already, but the current crop of students are the ones that had their childhood stole from them through Covid. And that's dealt them a whole heap of additional problems. Social anxiety, only being able to communicate via Whatsapp etc. Throw into the mix strikes, the prospect of being in perpetual debt at the end of their course. Housing and living costs being so high. It's a nightmare.

Steiner schools do not focus on testing.
Its all about the experience and lots of self learning.
They are fee paying though, or at least I don’t know any that aren’t.
However, certainly some years ago, you only paid what you could afford. Parents put in voluntary time to make up the shortfall, if they could.

@ErroneousEntity your DS sounds ace! Thanks for telling us about his experience: in the face of dealing with more than a few entitled students, your story gives me heart.

It also adds to my conviction that gap years, not going straight to university, and working out how you can work within the requirements for learning at university with a bit more maturity, is something we really need to consider.

Over 30 years of teaching in HE, I've dealt with more than a few students who seem to use being at university as a kind of therapy. They don't do all the work required, but "being at uni" seems to be essential for their mental health. They really shouldn't be there, but I've been told that "being at uni" is the only thing keeping them healthy; if they aren't at university, they feel they're failing. It's typical teen overstatement, but we can't call it out. So they don't do the work, and they do fail. It's such a waste & so sad.

I generally don't tolerate misbehaviour that impacts on others in my classroom. If they want to look at their phone or laptop, that's their choice. It's up to them if they want to learn. As my largest class at the moment is 75 students that is very easy to manage. I stop talking, give them the death stare and when they stop, I remind them how disruptive it is to everyone else for them to be chatting. I generally don't have any problems.

However, last week I took a class of 220 for a 2 hour lecture and they were atrocious. There was a high percentage of international students and the general consensus around the faculty is that this chatting is "cultural". I don't buy it as one of my classes is majority international and the other is 50% Erasmus and neither are problematic.

I took my usual approach but it was taking too long for them to stop so I asked the students to tell anyone sitting beside them to be quiet. I did have to do it a couple of times but by the end they were behaving. I had a couple of students come up to me afterwards to thank me as they are so fed up of the disruption in class.

Realistically, I think it is up to the lecturer to take control of the situation but it can be exhausting. You also need to know that you have management support which may not be the case in all universities/departments. Then you also have students who will argue back with you if you call them out. I have had one make a complaint about my lack of respect towards him for calling out his misbehaviour. I was livid the complaint actually made it as far as my desk and wasn't dismissed out of hand.

I don't understand how that justifies rudeness?

Anyway, it was an issue pre-Covid.

Exactly, I think it explains (not justifies) some behaviours - I had one group ask me to take a photo of my workings on the board and add it to the VLE, because after a year of online learning they hadn't grasped that they should be taking notes on what happened in the lecture. It was a ridiculous request but I understood where it came from and explained my expectations. They're final year now and finally are at a place socially where they get it. A lovely bunch of students, I'll be very proud of them when they graduate next summer as they really did have a bit of a shit start to uni (four year degree).

Nothing about covid justifies (or explains) rudeness like talking through class.

I have a role which involves liaising with universities across the country. Your son’s experience is very much an exception. In fact I’ve never heard of it at all.

However, last week I took a class of 220 for a 2 hour lecture and they were atrocious. There was a high percentage of international students and the general consensus around the faculty is that this chatting is "cultural". I don't buy it as one of my classes is majority international and the other is 50% Erasmus and neither are problematic.

Out of interest, are the different cohorts from the same background? We have a lot of international students, and had a sudden switch to the vast majority coming from China to the vast majority coming from India. There are cultural issues that crop up with both groups, but they're very different and we've had to adapt quickly as the strategies we had put in place to help them don't necessarily transfer.

@FarEast I remember having exactly the same convo with myself at uni too- I had to pretend I wasn't so shy and just crack on. It was hard but also just part of me growing up.
I do worry that, if I were young now, I'd self diagnose with social anxiety and just lean into the medicalisation of my shyness.

No difference. The international class I teach normally were in the class of 220. There are only 70 of them though.

They are still mainly Indian but we have a massive increase in Chinese students this year. The big issue with the Chinese students is poor English skills. It's mainly Indians chatting though.

In my UG class with the Erasmus students, I did have some issues with the French ones at the beginning of the semester. Their English is not as good as the other Erasmus students though.