Page 10 | To ask if you work in a university have you noticed a recent change in student behaviour?

0987ghj · 2023-10-26T10:26:19+00:00

I graduated from university in 2019, and have now returned to study a different course. I've noticed a big difference in student behaviour and I wondered if it's something that university staff have also noticed or if it's just my course. I'm hoping that this thread doesn't seem like I'm trying to slate current university students/gen Z. A few of the examples I've seen are from mature students, so I don't think it's generational/an age thing. There's a lot of talking now during lectures, people just talking loudly whilst the lecturer is talking (not even whispering). It's pretty brazen and full on conversations, not just a quick question or comment, and really distracting. People are often late quite a lot, there's routinely a few students who are 40+ minutes late to a 2-hour lecture. I know there are some reasons people may be late such as childcare issues, or traffic or illnesses like IBS that make it hard to leave the house in the mornings so that might just be why, but it's a lot more lateness than I ever saw in my degree before. There would be the occasional person 5-10 minutes late, but not 40+ minutes. People also start packing up and starting to leave before the lecturer has even finished talking. Our lectures always finish slightly early to allow time to walk to other lectures so there's not really any need for it. I don't remember this happening before, unless it was because the lecture had ran over and even then people would quietly/subtly pack up.

FarEast · 27/10/2023 15:26

US Universities ran regular student satisfaction surveys and responded to the results (though this seemed to drive sone grade inflation compared with grading here). It's interesting that our student loan system hasn't had the same effect and that 'market forces' don't seem to be driving a more demanding and motivated student culture.

It has driven changes, just that they aren't necessarily for the better. The NSS (national satisfaction survey) is a blunt instrument, which asks questions that seem to expect negative answers, and with very little expectation that students actively engage with their work. For example, it doesn't ask "How satisfied are you with your preparation and participation?"

The stats experts at my place say that it wouldn't past a 1st year assignment in setting up a satisfaction questionnaire ...

The spoon-feeding is often about things that de-skill students. For example, in my humanities field, students expect to be told almost individually, exactly what they need to be doing, instead of consulting the documentation we provide - in required detail - on our virtual learning environments. They no longer go to the library to search for sources - they expect to have a reading list with links to the digitised material, at a keystroke, and even in their final year, they don't know how to search for sources independently. And this is not because we haven't shown them. Repeatedly.

RampantIvy · 27/10/2023 15:37

There wasn't any spoon feeding at DD's university. It isn't a top 10 or one that would pass muster with the snobby mumsnetters on the HE boards even though it is in the top 20 for her course, but the students were expected to do their own research.

In her first year DD told me that at one lecture just before some December exams a student asked the lecturer what topics would be covered in the exams. The lecturer replied "this isn't school. You are expected to know and revise all the topics we have covered so far. We don't tell you what is going to be included in exams."

DD asked for a PEC when she was struck down with covid during her third year dissertation and it was refused. Even her dissertation tutor was astounded that it was refused.

TortolaParadise · 27/10/2023 16:12

All2Well · 27/10/2023 08:03

In the past 6 years, I've taught at two different university. With every year that's passed, but especially since the pandemic, I've seen students become less and less emotionally mature and, frankly, completely unable to cope with the adult world.

At my current university, more than half of my students have support plans from Wellbeing that says that due to mental health reasons tutors need to allow them to be flexible with attendance and deadlines. More than half. Bear in mind that most assessments are practical, can't be carried out alone and take place in a dedicated lab with additional technicians' support which all has to be booked an academic year in advance for timetabling.

I'm neurodiverse with often crippling anxiety and depression but I NEVER used any of that as an excuse or expected other people to pander to me. This is next level entitlement. One student even involves a friend and fellow student as part of their accomodations for fibromyalgia ("must be allowed to leave the lab or lecture at any time and take Emma to care for her. If student becomes distressed, Emma must implement support plan. Student must be allowed to not attend lectures at short notice and have Emma stay at home to
care for them.") 9/10 I find the student in the cafe opposite the lecture theatre laughing and joking with their boyfriend and a miserable looking Emma who now has lots of work to catch up on.

The same students every week wander in 45 minutes late (but yes, coffee in hand) with a different excuse every week. It's a practical course, so when they're late they're not just missing out on learning a technique or method and demonstrating a competency, they're often messing things up for the rest of the group who rely on one another for practice and demonstration. Then there's the walking out of the room and walking back in at random intervals (because, anxiety) by several different students every week. And passing round phones and giggling at something random on TikTok or Snapchat rudely.

There's a really odd expectation now that we are substitute parents and need to meet their emotional needs, sort out squabbles and personal minor (petty!) conflicts and never give any form of criticism at all. Even suggestions about approaches to time management, study skills etc are taken personally and staff have to be unreasonably careful not to say anything that might be taken as personal criticism.

One personal tutee posted a series of tweets about me saying that her now ex favourite tutor clearly thinks she's insane and a complete nut job because she told her she needed therapy. She'd been unable to take part in lectures, labs and seminars for six weeks because whenever she'd make the slightest mistake she'd scream a slew of abuse at herself, hit things, and cry hysterically and had taken to just showing up at the door of the lecture theatre and crying hysterically and saying "I can't do it. I can't sit in there knowing I'm the shittest student week after week." despite being on track for a first. After six weeks of all of this (and getting pulled out of teaching several times to support her), I'd gently told her I'd made a referral to Student Wellbeing to see if she might be eligible for some additional support such as counselling.

They openly bitch about and mock my colleagues to me, as if they expect me to join in. We're held up to impossible standards yet disrespected. By adults who have an inability to get out of bed and make it on time to a 12pm lecture (because it's too early) and who sulk constantly if pretty much anything is asked of them.

On my first day at my most recent university, the systems were down and no one could print off a list of student's names. In my first seminar that day I passed a sheet of paper round the 20 students and asked them to write their name, and pronouns down for me (because God forbid you misgender one of them) and you'd have thought I'd asked them to climb Everest naked and blindfolded, "wait what? Why? What am I writing again? Do you need middle names? Can I put my nickname down instead? What if you don't have pronouns? What if they change a lot? Can't you just learn my name now? Wait, why have I been given a piece of paper? What do I do with it next? Who is it for? Do you want my mobile number and halls and my parents details in case there is an emergency too? I can't do it I don't have a pen, I didn't bring one and my student loan ran out and I can't afford one until pay day. Can someone else do it for me? Can you not do it for me?"

I honestly feel more like a children's TV presenter or play room leader than a lecturer. Crazily enough I've found if I basically act like Ms Rachel then they are all happy and I come out on top of all the course evaluations ("we hate all the other lecturers, they're weird and boring and they smell but we like you, you're the BEST and make learning FUN!", genuine feedback there.)

I am genuinely considering going back to primary teaching. They're better behaved and get more learning done.

OMG, I work with these people - disrespectful, no criticism allowed, hysterical, anxious, sensitive to all perceived slights and yet is huffy and rudeness personified!!!!

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 17:39

TortolaParadise · 27/10/2023 16:12

OMG, I work with these people - disrespectful, no criticism allowed, hysterical, anxious, sensitive to all perceived slights and yet is huffy and rudeness personified!!!!

Show quote history

This is exactly the sort of stuff my friend who is a tutor at uni says.
One of the top unis requiring all As and Astars.
How on earth did they get those grades

TortolaParadise · 27/10/2023 18:08

@CosimoPiovasco I would love to know. I guess academic attainment comes from a different part of the brain that emotional intelligence and problem solving comes from!

CosimoPiovasco · 27/10/2023 18:10

TortolaParadise · 27/10/2023 18:08

@CosimoPiovasco I would love to know. I guess academic attainment comes from a different part of the brain that emotional intelligence and problem solving comes from!

Absolutely.
Its not a mark of common sense

MangosteenSoda · 27/10/2023 18:16

I teach on a course with an intake of between 350-380 first years. I think this year’s cohort seem to more in line with the 2020 cohort who were only very latterly affected by Covid in their 6th form years.

21 and 22 had fewer interpersonal skills and there was also an issue with grade inflation. This seems to have worked itself out a bit more this year and I’ve been really pleasantly surprised by the competence and engagement of the new starters. We have had to remind the cohort as a whole to stfu in lectures though.

I love working with this age bracket. They are on such a journey. Yes, it can be VERY frustrating at times and I agree with the heavy volume of students needing support plans being incredibly high right now. I just love it when you see them starting to grow. The first thing a particular student said to me last year was, ‘I don’t know what I’m fucking doing here innit’. I suggested we try to unpack that somewhat 😁 This year, that student is a peer mentor and I absolutely love seeing them walk around our building with their head high, looking confident and happy.

The other cohort I mainly work with is Postgrad taught students. They are mostly international and this is actually my specialty. They come with a different set of challenges but also come with a lot of knowledge, bravery and experience we need to unlock.

The single thing that bugs me about this cohort is a lack of obvious engagement and participation in certain activities that require active engagement and participation. We have numerous engagement models to support our learners and students can pick the model that suits them best… but participation is a must. I really do find it frustrating when students opt for an online option that is meant to be participatory and then sit there with cameras and mics off. It’s really unfair on the students who have attended that sort of session with the expectation of participating.

MangosteenSoda · 27/10/2023 18:25

RampantIvy · 27/10/2023 15:37

There wasn't any spoon feeding at DD's university. It isn't a top 10 or one that would pass muster with the snobby mumsnetters on the HE boards even though it is in the top 20 for her course, but the students were expected to do their own research.

In her first year DD told me that at one lecture just before some December exams a student asked the lecturer what topics would be covered in the exams. The lecturer replied "this isn't school. You are expected to know and revise all the topics we have covered so far. We don't tell you what is going to be included in exams."

DD asked for a PEC when she was struck down with covid during her third year dissertation and it was refused. Even her dissertation tutor was astounded that it was refused.

Tbh, I think the lecturer’s response re exam content was ok because that’s the fact of it and the student should have known that. Perhaps it could have been phrased more nicely, but I sometimes find directness is the best option to avoid confusion and to set expectations.

I am surprised your DD didn’t get an extension for illness though.

FarEast · 27/10/2023 18:31

I just love it when you see them starting to grow.

Yes, yes, @MangosteenSoda despite moaning on this thread, so do I. When you see the penny drop in a seminar. I've spent hours this week with research project groups, and they're mostly creative, questioning, and keen. But even these lovely bright kids need a lot more chivvying and coaching. THey get a lot of input from me, and they need it.

Shyandhiding · 27/10/2023 18:32

Foodorder · 26/10/2023 20:27

I think society as a whole has vastly different attitudes to work. Early in my career, I and all the people around me worked soooo hard. People I work with now, young and old and including me, whilst perfectly competent, just don't seem to be prepared to put in anything over what's absolutely required. Which may be a good thing, but we did it for our own benefit and progression really.

I agree. I think it could be a combination of:

Work doesn't ‘pay’ any more - people feel that what they want is out of reach, even if they were to work hard or get a promotion.

The constant ‘disaster’ news stories and recent pandemic have reminded everyone what’s important in life, and that’s not work (especially if it isn't bringing you a lifestyle you enjoy).

MangosteenSoda · 27/10/2023 18:51

FarEast · 27/10/2023 18:31

I just love it when you see them starting to grow.

Yes, yes, @MangosteenSoda despite moaning on this thread, so do I. When you see the penny drop in a seminar. I've spent hours this week with research project groups, and they're mostly creative, questioning, and keen. But even these lovely bright kids need a lot more chivvying and coaching. THey get a lot of input from me, and they need it.

Yeah, your last two sentences do totally resonate.

Not sure if I’m misinterpreting your username, but I spent many years at far east unis (too?) before returning to UK unis and I think UK students are less used to direct and honest communication (and may think expectations are optional rather than… expected).

daliesque · 27/10/2023 19:04

I worked all the way through university in the late 1990s. It's not new. My assignments didn't suffer.

I started in 1992 and although I had my fees paid (thank fuck as I did medicine) the grant barely covered my rent so I had to take a loan and then work in a supermarket and a bar to pay living expenses.

I do feel like people seem to assume that those of us who went to university pre student fees nad everything paid for us, including rent in a scummy bedsit with mould.

daliesque · 27/10/2023 19:52

Not helped by the "anti car" agenda of so many Unis that prevent students from driving between home and Uni

Again, harping back to the old days, students were never allowed to bring their cars to uni. Us medical students routinely had to "commute" between the campus and the hospital 3 miles away. We either walked, caught the bus or cycled.

daliesque · 27/10/2023 20:15

OMG, I work with these people - disrespectful, no criticism allowed, hysterical, anxious, sensitive to all perceived slights and yet is huffy and rudeness personified!!!!

I have some people like that in my workplace too.

It's frightening because they are junior doctors and band 5 nurses.

Most are amazing young people, but some.....the thought of them being responsible for patients scares me.

And before anyone mentions covid again - I and almost every member of staff in our unit spent most of 2020 in ITU. I had student doctors and nurses holding phones and iPads up to patients as their families said goodbye. Then held the hands of those patients as they died. They are young people to be proud of and the ones who we owe help to. Not the ones who spent that year in warm bedrooms with their families.

Kittykatastrophe · 27/10/2023 20:21

I’ve noticed a change in student nurses . When I was at uni , albeit I was one of the he first to do the “new” uni attendance training in the early 90’s , I just did as I was told gave it my all , wanted to get on with my mentor and pass the placement. Now s a mentor myself I get “ can I not do something more exciting?” Or “we’re not here to fetch commodes or do bed baths!” Or “I’m not working that shift !!” to “ I’m actually a beauty therapist really, I’m only doing nursing to do the prescribing module after qualifying so I won’t have to pay someone to prescribe my Botox and fillers” !!!!! They’re so obstructive and defensive , I don’t know what they tell them in lectures these days , and no I’m not horrible to students I’m one of the soft ones 😂😂

Toddlerteaplease · 27/10/2023 20:37

@Kittykatastrophe ours aren't quite as bad as that. But there is definitely some truth in what you say. When I was a student (2001-4) I did what I was asked to do and looked enthusiastic about it. Even if I'd done it before.

FarEast · 27/10/2023 21:06

I and almost every member of staff in our unit spent most of 2020 in ITU. I had student doctors and nurses holding phones and iPads up to patients as their families said goodbye. Then held the hands of those patients as they died. They are young people to be proud of and the ones who we owe help to. Not the ones who spent that year in warm bedrooms with their families.

Yes indeed. It was tough for everyone, but I really think we need to stop with the "poor students' stuck studying at home. There were far worse situations for lots of people during the pandemic. In addition to NHS staff, shop workers, bus drivers, everyone who kept essential services going.

I listened, nodded, and sympathised with students stuck at home, all the while wondering if I'd ever see my mother alive again - she lives in a country that closed its borders for almost 2 years, and she's in frail health.

Chocolatepeanutbuttercupsandicecream · 27/10/2023 21:38

I’m a mature student first year undergrad this year. I think my cohort is pretty good, although of course I’m only seeing one side.
Lateness does happen, but mostly in the first 5-10 minutes, and I suspect mainly to do with scheduling and consecutive classes at opposite sides of campus. There are a few outside of that but they’re definitely in the minority.
Phones are used, but there’s no way of knowing who’s using a note taking app and who isn’t, so I guess if people aren’t bugging anyone else then it’s their own lookout.
Chatting I really haven’t seen or heard a lot of.
Tutorial groups are hit and miss. If you have a group with several people who struggle to participate it can be tricky, but I imagine it was ever thus.
I’m lucky I think though.. I have 13 contact hours per week, all face to face (although recordings are available for some classes).. my ds started uni in 2020 and has only ever had a handful of contact hours per week, and has never developed any kind of relationship with lecturers / tutors, or many meaningful peer relationships (his first two years were almost entirely online).. it doesn’t mean he messes about, but I can see how university becomes devalued in that scenario, and doesn’t help develop good lecture etiquette.

TickyTacky · 27/10/2023 22:57

So I'm a 3rd year mature student and can't say I've experienced any of this. But I currently have a 6 hour day without a break 1 day a week, and therefore eat my sandwich at the beginning of the second seminar. I feel terrible now! It's only cheese & tomato if that helps 😂

OchonAgusOchonOh · 27/10/2023 23:15

TickyTacky · 27/10/2023 22:57

So I'm a 3rd year mature student and can't say I've experienced any of this. But I currently have a 6 hour day without a break 1 day a week, and therefore eat my sandwich at the beginning of the second seminar. I feel terrible now! It's only cheese & tomato if that helps 😂

I have no issue with students eating in lectures so long as it's not noisy or smelly.

ColleenDonaghy · 27/10/2023 23:49

TickyTacky · 27/10/2023 22:57

So I'm a 3rd year mature student and can't say I've experienced any of this. But I currently have a 6 hour day without a break 1 day a week, and therefore eat my sandwich at the beginning of the second seminar. I feel terrible now! It's only cheese & tomato if that helps 😂

I teach 11-4 without a break on Tuesdays, so I'm frequently found munching on a sandwich whenever the opportunity arises

Kittykatastrophe · 28/10/2023 00:20

I think the message of question everything and be objective that they seem to get bombarded with is being interpreted as be obnoxious in some cases 🤦🏻‍♀️

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum · 28/10/2023 00:38

13 years of Tory selfishness has removed the inate sense of self respect and respect for others that used to be ingrained. It it insidious.

ACGTHelix · 28/10/2023 00:44

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum · 28/10/2023 00:38

13 years of Tory selfishness has removed the inate sense of self respect and respect for others that used to be ingrained. It it insidious.

hardly politics fault, people should have good manners etc by default, not then go oh i blame the govt for lack of morals. what happened to being a better person ?

OchonAgusOchonOh · 28/10/2023 09:50

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum · 28/10/2023 00:38

13 years of Tory selfishness has removed the inate sense of self respect and respect for others that used to be ingrained. It it insidious.

I'm in Ireland so no Tory government. It's the same here.