To ask if you work in a university have you noticed a recent change in student behaviour?

[0987ghj]

I graduated from university in 2019, and have now returned to study a different course. I've noticed a big difference in student behaviour and I wondered if it's something that university staff have also noticed or if it's just my course.

I'm hoping that this thread doesn't seem like I'm trying to slate current university students/gen Z. A few of the examples I've seen are from mature students, so I don't think it's generational/an age thing.

There's a lot of talking now during lectures, people just talking loudly whilst the lecturer is talking (not even whispering). It's pretty brazen and full on conversations, not just a quick question or comment, and really distracting. People are often late quite a lot, there's routinely a few students who are 40+ minutes late to a 2-hour lecture. I know there are some reasons people may be late such as childcare issues, or traffic or illnesses like IBS that make it hard to leave the house in the mornings so that might just be why, but it's a lot more lateness than I ever saw in my degree before. There would be the occasional person 5-10 minutes late, but not 40+ minutes.

People also start packing up and starting to leave before the lecturer has even finished talking. Our lectures always finish slightly early to allow time to walk to other lectures so there's not really any need for it. I don't remember this happening before, unless it was because the lecture had ran over and even then people would quietly/subtly pack up.

If students were a little less self and celebrity absorbed and more politically aware they would understand that the strikes benefit them too, and when they start their careers they may be glad that someone made pay sacrifices to give them better working conditions and pensions.

That first thing isn't Covid (in fact in Covid, some students learnt better how to self study). That's the secondary education system (thanks to Gove et al) being obsessed with exams as the only mean of assessing things. Increasingly in schools , pupils are being deskilled in self management as they do no coursework even in most A level subjects and, in some schools, limited homework, too. Of course, teachers still set work but there are few subjects which require important deadlines, and self discipline, and lots of spoon feeding goes on. I always think this must be a useless preparation for university for lots of students.

My dd has just started uni.
I am shocked at the lack of organisation. Little information filters through and often lectures are different to the one they have been told to prepare for. She has to search for every nugget of information. The app where they mark in attendance doesn't work. Very few students attend.
With all the lectures online, and the students having managed success at A levels by disciplining themselves to work hard at home, I'm not surprised they see the actual in-person experience at Uni less necessary than in the past.

My workplace has uni students doing the on job training as part of the course.

I can confirm the entitlement and lack of willingness to learn the basic fundamentals carries over into workplace.
I can’t believe the amount of times I’ve heard “I’m paying for this, you should allow me to do <insert exciting but inappropriate non relevant thing> instead of learning the very foundations of the job.
Has really put me off teaching.

things have changed since covid ☹️

I’m a lecturer, but I only started post covid. I’m thankful I have really great students who are respectful, not late to class and never speak over me.

However, I have the same students every single deadline requiring an extension for their assignments.

We also lecture via Zoom for our remote/online students. The attendance for our live zoom sessions is rather poor but those sessions (which are supposed to be collaborative) are recorded.

Flip side, I’m also a student so this has made me much more respectful towards my own teachers.

When I did my first degree, in class attendance was compulsory. Nobody would have dreamed of being late or speaking in class!

Phones, yes- but I tell them to put them away. Eating? No. Talking while I am talking. Hell, no.

As a teacher, I would not tolerate any of this. But smaller numbers in the room, obviously. My biggest teacher gripe is low attendance and lack of work outside lessons.

I don't understand why lecture halls don't have signs saying 'no eating'. Wouldn't' that help?

DS started off doing economics and was shocked by the attitude of lots of students in lectures. He now does history and says it's far more rare.

I am guessing it depends very much on the course, class-size, and uni. DD is on a vocational design course at art school with a tiny cohort, and while there are a few traditional lectures, she hasn't mentioned any of those issues. The studios are open for long hours and she spends much of her waking life there, as there is always so much coursework to do. Maybe some courses attract kids with different levels of enthusiasm?

But isn't this the age group that have had phones throughout their teens? Constant 'advice' and influencers showing them how to live life how to make millions (sitting on their rearends) - showing them what they deserve in life?

Bound to have a bad effect.

I'm a secondary school teacher and genuinely think that some students forget I'm a person and not a screen.

I’ve recently started an MA in Education, it’s a mix of teachers and non teachers, I’m studying online but some are full time face to face students and I was really shocked in some of my lectures (online students on zoom and F2F students in person) when the lecturer had to stop and tell the face to face students off for talking over her and for being late. One even asked in the induction session how important attendance was 🤦🏼‍♀️.

I think respect for universities has gone down a lot in the last few years. The continuation of online learning way longer than necessary plus strikes has made people fed up. Students are probably more cynical and feel they are paying a vast amount of money for a shitty service and a qualification.

This!!

and it's not just teens/young adults IMO it's influencing society as a whole.

Standard of behaviour in the general population have most definitely gone down.

I left university in 2010. Some of this behaviour was there then too.

I am classed as ‘lucky’ as I paid off my student loan 12 years later, in a decent job.

Given the absolutely shocking way young people are treated whereby they are unlikely to ever pay off the student loans, let alone buy a home any time soon, I don’t blame them for treating it all like a bit of a joke, because it is. Most courses are a money making scam. If you don’t go, you definitely can’t get into a profession, if you do go, you’re saddled worth debt and stress. Universities are businesses, and don’t get me started on how an 18 year old can sign up to tens of thousands of pounds of debt but can’t get a credit card until they’ve established good credit rating.

In summary, I’d probably treat the lectures the same way in this climate. And yes, they’re entitled to do so, quite literally.

People I work with now, young and old and including me, whilst perfectly competent, just don't seem to be prepared to put in anything over what's absolutely required. Which may be a good thing, but we did it for our own benefit and progression really.

This is because the extra work does not bring the financial reward it did, relatively speaking, against a back drop where housing is so unaffordable.

I’m a lecturer and two things have stood out for me over the last few years since Covid. That’s when the really big changes occurred and I have been in HE for about 20 years. The first change is attendance - I teach 2 level 3 modules ( final year) one in semester 1, 1 in semester 2, and for both, the attendance is never more than 50% and often a lot less. It’s supposed to be monitored but in practice it never is. All the lectures are recorded so most students don’t bother to come in. On one particularly bad week I had one student. The first time it was this bad was 2 years ago and I was ashamed because I blamed myself, but I went on an HE support group site and some lectures regularly got no students at all. Then the second thing is mental health and sever learning difficulties. In my current class of 33 students, only 2 have no difficulties and no support plan. The rest have a mixture of mainly autism, adhd and sever depression. I couldn’t give individual support even if I wanted to. For context, I work in a Russell group uni with high entry grades.

Yes.

Lateness

Talking in the session, repeatedly even after been told to stop

Not doing pre reading or post session reading and then complaining of lack of understanding

Not wanting to do any work outside of the timetabled sessions and moaning about it being a "teach it yourself degree" because they've been set two pieces of group work to do and present back. Even after explaining this will help not just with subject knowledge but softer skills such as team working, getting to know your new cohort, literature searching skills, presenting skills.

I turn a blind eye to phones out in lectures because for all I know they're making notes, googling something related to what I'm talking about.

I also get students telling me how much they're paying for a course and that they expect better, etc. I'm always open to constructive criticism, not rudeness though......especially if it's about something out of my control!

I work training adults in niche qualifications. The difference in pre Covid and now is huge.

Few now take responsibility for their own learning and expect everything spoon fed. Despite being given clear instructions on how to access materials they are unable to read them or spend more than 30 seconds working out where something is. They frequently think it’s ok to dip out of sessions or even miss them completely without any ramifications. Often they forget they have sessions despite having had dates given to them on multiple occasions.

It’s actually really sad when the world feels like it’s going backwards. These are mature adults so not UGs who were stuck in their bedrooms unable to develop social skills. I think there is something about many allowances being made for multiple things during Covid and people expecting this still to hold. Last year the entitlement many felt to going on holiday for example. Never mind that they miss their course, they need the holiday.

I’m a lecturer and it’s very much like this with some student groups. I think it’s mostly due to the fee increase resulting in a sense of entirlement. Turning up when they like, talking, knowing they don’t need to hand in assignments on time as they’ll get an extension no problem. Then kicking off because they’ve got 3 deadlines at once because they’ve managed to bunch them together due to all their extensions. I often tell students to be quiet in lectures and sometimes they respond and sometimes they don’t. We’ve resorted to calling security to remove those that are deliberately causing a scene. We get told we can’t challenge lateness due to a potential learning contract. We also get parents calling up to kick off if we dare challenge their grown children on anything- and the parents loose it when we explain we cannot discuss their child with them as they are adults- so often learned entitled behaviour from mum and dad too. We can however not allow them into labs late as they miss the health and safety brief and they are incandescent with rage when this happens. I’ve seen grown 20 y olds stamp their feet and yell like tiny toddlers- it’s like I’m telling them no for the first time in their life and they can’t quite believe it. Having said that it’s not all students who are like this- most of them are lovely. Just a growing sub-population.

On my post it should be severe not sever 🤪

“Then the second thing is mental health and sever learning difficulties. In my current class of 33 students, only 2 have no difficulties and no support plan. The rest have a mixture of mainly autism, adhd and sever depression.”

😮

I think you'll find a lot aren't absenting for work. My lecturer friend has complaints if his lectures are before 11am as the students don't want to get up as they've been drinking. No sense of responsibility I'm afraid. That example is fact btw, not opinion.

My ex has had students come to him prior to the exams and ask for the questions! Their reasoning was they have paid for their degree. Worse than as the several bribes he was offered by parents overseas students, thus was all pre covid too. Degrees are a commodity

I know - it really IS astonishing. This year in particular I have been actually speechless at the extent and severity of some of the problems that the students have. And each year it gets worse. I’m fully expecting in couple of years that every single one will have a diagnosis and support plan. 😵‍💫

I see similar behaviours in my sixth formers too. One big issue is that we have so many students with anxiety issues who cannot come into lessons, might struggle to take notes, mustn't be cold called, need extra time etc. I have always made reasonable adjustments for students with SEND but this is getting ridiculous now. I don't doubt that some of these students feel some anxiety but the world has gone a bit mad. It's normal to feel a bit anxious when you've not done your homework or you've not revised for a test, or didn't listen in the previous lesson so don't know an answer when put on the spot. What you need to do is apologise and and move on. Not miss 3 lessons and have an exif cart to walk out whenever you want....because then you miss even more and feel even more anxious. I know that sounds like I have no sympathy, I do. I have dealt with anxiety in the past too but we are not equipping students in schools to cope with it we are giving them excuses to bow out. Then their parents get angry and want to blame us when they are failing.

In the past 6 years, I've taught at two different university. With every year that's passed, but especially since the pandemic, I've seen students become less and less emotionally mature and, frankly, completely unable to cope with the adult world.

At my current university, more than half of my students have support plans from Wellbeing that says that due to mental health reasons tutors need to allow them to be flexible with attendance and deadlines. More than half. Bear in mind that most assessments are practical, can't be carried out alone and take place in a dedicated lab with additional technicians' support which all has to be booked an academic year in advance for timetabling.

I'm neurodiverse with often crippling anxiety and depression but I NEVER used any of that as an excuse or expected other people to pander to me. This is next level entitlement. One student even involves a friend and fellow student as part of their accomodations for fibromyalgia ("must be allowed to leave the lab or lecture at any time and take Emma to care for her. If student becomes distressed, Emma must implement support plan. Student must be allowed to not attend lectures at short notice and have Emma stay at home to
care for them.") 9/10 I find the student in the cafe opposite the lecture theatre laughing and joking with their boyfriend and a miserable looking Emma who now has lots of work to catch up on.

The same students every week wander in 45 minutes late (but yes, coffee in hand) with a different excuse every week. It's a practical course, so when they're late they're not just missing out on learning a technique or method and demonstrating a competency, they're often messing things up for the rest of the group who rely on one another for practice and demonstration. Then there's the walking out of the room and walking back in at random intervals (because, anxiety) by several different students every week. And passing round phones and giggling at something random on TikTok or Snapchat rudely.

There's a really odd expectation now that we are substitute parents and need to meet their emotional needs, sort out squabbles and personal minor (petty!) conflicts and never give any form of criticism at all. Even suggestions about approaches to time management, study skills etc are taken personally and staff have to be unreasonably careful not to say anything that might be taken as personal criticism.

One personal tutee posted a series of tweets about me saying that her now ex favourite tutor clearly thinks she's insane and a complete nut job because she told her she needed therapy. She'd been unable to take part in lectures, labs and seminars for six weeks because whenever she'd make the slightest mistake she'd scream a slew of abuse at herself, hit things, and cry hysterically and had taken to just showing up at the door of the lecture theatre and crying hysterically and saying "I can't do it. I can't sit in there knowing I'm the shittest student week after week." despite being on track for a first. After six weeks of all of this (and getting pulled out of teaching several times to support her), I'd gently told her I'd made a referral to Student Wellbeing to see if she might be eligible for some additional support such as counselling.

They openly bitch about and mock my colleagues to me, as if they expect me to join in. We're held up to impossible standards yet disrespected. By adults who have an inability to get out of bed and make it on time to a 12pm lecture (because it's too early) and who sulk constantly if pretty much anything is asked of them.

On my first day at my most recent university, the systems were down and no one could print off a list of student's names. In my first seminar that day I passed a sheet of paper round the 20 students and asked them to write their name, and pronouns down for me (because God forbid you misgender one of them) and you'd have thought I'd asked them to climb Everest naked and blindfolded, "wait what? Why? What am I writing again? Do you need middle names? Can I put my nickname down instead? What if you don't have pronouns? What if they change a lot? Can't you just learn my name now? Wait, why have I been given a piece of paper? What do I do with it next? Who is it for? Do you want my mobile number and halls and my parents details in case there is an emergency too? I can't do it I don't have a pen, I didn't bring one and my student loan ran out and I can't afford one until pay day. Can someone else do it for me? Can you not do it for me?"

I honestly feel more like a children's TV presenter or play room leader than a lecturer. Crazily enough I've found if I basically act like Ms Rachel then they are all happy and I come out on top of all the course evaluations ("we hate all the other lecturers, they're weird and boring and they smell but we like you, you're the BEST and make learning FUN!", genuine feedback there.)

I am genuinely considering going back to primary teaching. They're better behaved and get more learning done.