To ask if you work in a university have you noticed a recent change in student behaviour?

[0987ghj]

I graduated from university in 2019, and have now returned to study a different course. I've noticed a big difference in student behaviour and I wondered if it's something that university staff have also noticed or if it's just my course.

I'm hoping that this thread doesn't seem like I'm trying to slate current university students/gen Z. A few of the examples I've seen are from mature students, so I don't think it's generational/an age thing.

There's a lot of talking now during lectures, people just talking loudly whilst the lecturer is talking (not even whispering). It's pretty brazen and full on conversations, not just a quick question or comment, and really distracting. People are often late quite a lot, there's routinely a few students who are 40+ minutes late to a 2-hour lecture. I know there are some reasons people may be late such as childcare issues, or traffic or illnesses like IBS that make it hard to leave the house in the mornings so that might just be why, but it's a lot more lateness than I ever saw in my degree before. There would be the occasional person 5-10 minutes late, but not 40+ minutes.

People also start packing up and starting to leave before the lecturer has even finished talking. Our lectures always finish slightly early to allow time to walk to other lectures so there's not really any need for it. I don't remember this happening before, unless it was because the lecture had ran over and even then people would quietly/subtly pack up.

They're entitled to an education, they're entitled to the advertised classes and to be directed to some (not all) further resources. They're entitled to have their registration and generation processed, to use the library and the student union.

They're not entitled to a particular mark unless they do the requisite work, nor to skip the classes put on for their benefit and then expect a 1:1 catch up session. They're not entitled to an extension for no good reason, nor to talk through class and disturb others' learning. They're not entitled to speak to their lecturers in a rude way, nor to make completely unjustified complaints about the teaching or marking of someone infinitely more qualified.

Perhaps it’s because nowadays you can do all the work, fpr your own benefit and progression… and what will happen is that higher elites, born to higher social hierarchies, will see that the work is being done so not only can they not offer those benefits or progression, they can actually cut them. While minimum wage for jobs that require no skill keeps rising. You have to show more and more evidence of CPD to keep skilled jobs, do more and more training in your own time, and what does it earn? Buying your first house in your 40s with no inheritance to help and a mortgage that will last until the age the boomers could retire at. Meanwhile those in low skill jobs get offered right-to-but and the boomers laugh all the way to the bank. And then you get pushed sideways for the crimes of being female and over 40, and if you’re in public sector work as most women are you get treated like dirt and told you‘re lazy and need to contribute more for free.

Work has not been worth it for those of us who have lived through changing technology in the shadow of the boomers. It will actually start to improve for youngsters but faith has been lost with the old social contracts. it’s too late for us in our 40s now.

I work with students and they can be a challenging group. Many are wonderful but as a general rule they tend to be, from my Gen X/millennial perspective, far less resilient, less respectful and have unrealistic expectations for how life will treat them.

The packing up early and arriving late thing could in some cases be down to timetabling issues however. Depending on how big the campus is and how flexible the curriculum, some students have to go from one lecture to another within a very short timeframe, and they could be at opposite ends of campus.

I graduated 2010 and I do remember people coming late sometimes and sometimes leaving early but not all the time, it felt like we had the freedom to attend as we choose as we'd paid for it. I guess now with fees going up and online lectures being available then that's got even worse.

The loud talking though.. no excuse and it affects everyone. We used to whisper to each other if we really needed to.

Also to add, for leaving on time. If I'm scheduled to be there until 16:30, I'll be leaving at 16:35 regardless if its finished. I've planned my life around this and have trains to catch, family to get home to etc. Expect me to be on time and i will but I expect to finish on time also. And some lecturers I've found are very poor at telling students to 'finish the point' so to speak. Some students answer a question and give their whole life story with it and it's not relevant to what was being asked. It wastes everyone else's time.

My tutorial group this year are very good but their subject's year group as a whole (first years) have already had warnings about attendance and behaviour.

Completely this

I’m a lecturer and the biggest thing we see is students who aren’t able to meet deadlines/manage time and workload. I think it’s because of exams being cancelled during Covid maybe, and they are struggling to find a rhythm with it all. We also have an absolutely massive - like unbelievably massive - increase in students with mental health problems, which I suppose goes alongside the Covid theory.

That all makes sense.

I'm a lecturer in an Irish university and haven't found this. But then I say at the first lecture and seminar you can't be more than 10 minutes late, be quiet even if you're not taking notes etc... in seminars I have a no laptop rule, it's then very interactive that way. I had some people keep talking/laughing at their phones in a lecture and I just stopped mid sentence and asked if everything was alright, they stopped immediately. The feeling of all eyes on them in a 100 people lecture theatre makes them feel uncomfortable so they stop. It also showed I mean what I say. They're adults so I tell them it's about taking responsibility for respect for their fellow colleagues, I don't mind if they don't listen but don't prevent someone else who is. I sound like an unsympathetic plonker, I know, but then it's my job to pull rank or no-one else in the room will!

I think this, too.

I did lecture and was also a clinical educator at a university (medical related course) and the last three or four years of my working life saw a huge difference in the attitude of students.

They have paid for the course so it is up to the lecturer to teach them, not up to them to learn. They often weren't prepared to do extra reading, demanded placements within walking distance of their accommodation (good luck with that - placements are like hen's teeth because a lot of clinicians just haven't got the time to supervise a student) - one student demanded a rented car to get to her placement! You can imagine how well that went down.

Yes to the talking, coming in late (or not turning up - one student out of a group would just collect the handouts for the others). Then I'd get e-mails about X, Y and Z that they would have known about if they'd shifted their lazy backsides to come to the lectures.

Essays became 'cut-and-paste" jobs from the internet - many didn't even try to paraphrase, or even match the text. This might be OK in (say) Media Studies - you aren't going to kill someone I you cock it up in the real world, but where there is risk to patients it's totally unacceptable.

It was very much - I'm paying for this degree, you, the tutor, are in the same position as a waiter in a restaurant - just fetch me my qualification and make it snappy.

I hasten to add that not all students were like this - there were still some excellent ones who were prepared to knuckle down and work, but there was a definite trend to idleness.

And there was also a lack of what you might call general knowledge - nobody seemed to read any more. Some students needed to be spoon fed everything.

Jesus wept. 😲😲😲😲

@Brightonbelle87 I completely agree - setting expectations at the start of my course is definitely important. I emphasise how hard they have all worked to be on the course (very competitive to get on to) and not to jeopardise their or their peers learning. At university level I don't expect to have to discipline students but if I have to call some of them out on their behaviour then I will even thought it makes me uncomfortable. As at their age few will feel comfortable asking a peer to e.g. stop talking about last night's TV while they are trying to work through a problem.

I worked throughout uni in the 90s I went again in the 2010s and had 3 kids under 5, one I gave birth to a week after my summer exams. Still managed to do my work and shut the fuck up during lectures.

Oh, they tell you about it. Especially when they’ve been expected to do something and haven’t done it.

Repeatedly.

But even so, university education is a two way thing. You get out of it what you are willing to put in.

I work in private rented sector student accommodation and over the last few years have noticed students becoming less and less able to look after themselves. It is commonplace now to get emails asking us to change lightbulbs (never happened 10 years ago) and if we pushback urging them to do this themselves with the accompanying YouTube how to video we are told variously it's too dangerous, they shouldn't have to or they simply can't understand how.

I had a parent ring me a month ago asking me what our procedure was for monitoring what her son was going to be eating whilst living in our property. When I explained this wasn't part of our remit she was angry and asserted it was my fault he would probably just eat takeaway pizza if I didn't make sure he was eating a balanced diet.

We also get far more problems now with late and unpaid rent and very many of these tell me that they are unable to discuss their rent payments with me as it will trigger health or anxiety issues.

I very much believe that it is a good thing we recognise mental health issues nowadays and that we are encouraged to talk about them more but I also firmly believe as PPs mentioned it is normal to have some occasional anxiety and it is unhelpful to use anxiety as an excuse for not dealing with day to day issues that are easily sorted if discussed but will get out of control and lead to big problems if not faced up to. And before anyone jumps on me I do understand there will be a very small majority for whom this is impossible but it is not the numbers that we now see regularly I'm sure.

I agree with this.

If they are indulged they'll just take their shitty attitudes into the workplace and later adulthood.

I attended university in the late 90's for my undergraduate degree ( I rate the education and experience very highly and that was free with a grant) and then again 9 years later for my masters (I also had my fee's paid for this and a small grant), there was a huge change between those two times. It felt like resources where scarcer whether that be facilities or teaching time. This was before and after the huge boost in overseas students and it definitely felt that overseas students paying a lot of money to be there got a free pass in terms of behaviour and work and would pass anyway even if they put little work in, that shocked me.

To be honest my experience during my masters put me off taking my studies any further than that as I felt time and money was better spent elsewhere.

I suppose my point is that it seems likely that the culture and attitudes at university is always changing over time, always has and not always for the better. I do think it seemed to be better when people didn't pay as they do now and it felt like more a privilege to be there rather than something people paid for as they do now and when universities operated less like businesses for profit.

And yes, students ARE now customers now that they're paying £9250 p.a. tuition fees. They expect more than a couple of decades ago, when they got it free! That doesn't excuse poor behaviour but it's obvious they're going to have higher expectations and Unis need to realise the different dynamics now that they're a "paid for" service provider!

The students might be customers, but they are not the lecturer's customers. Lecturers are there to design the course, provide information during lectrues, facilitate discussion during seminars, and mark work. What "more" is there to expect? It's university-level learning, no one else can do it for you, the students have bought the oportunity to acquire knowledge, understanding, skill and qualifications. They have not bought a PA, which is how many lecturers are treated.

Students need to turn up on time, having done the reading, with the correct equipment, and they need to behave like adults in class: no eating, silent, participating. Payment has nothing to do with it. I pay for my son's weekly forest school sessions, but if we turn up half hour late, without wellies and without a snack, we will have missed most of the class and won't be able to participate. Turning around and saying "but I paid" is neither here not there. Payment allows me the opportunity to turn up and have the experience, not the right to do so even if unprepared.

I think the problem is that students don't want to be there, but feel that they have to. So it's an extension of school and they resent being "made" to be there and do the work. Meanwhile lecturers who went through the old system themselves don't understand why the students aren't engaged. I persoanlly never try to make my lectures "fun". If the results of the experiments I'm telling you about aren't interesting to you in their own rights, then you shouldn't be in my class.

Exactly this @Foodorder

Perhaps the lecturers who were so keen to work from home and reluctant to go back to face to face teaching should have been more careful what they wished for!

Well I can only speak for myself and my university but were I work it wasn't the lecturers that were reluctant to come back face to face - it was the university. When f2f teaching was first allowed it was still keeping students at a 2m distance, I had to teach in a visor (the students said they couldn't hear me). Because all the students had to be 2m apart we needed a room twice the size. There weren't enough rooms on campus so we were told to only teach f2f 50% of the time. They also didn't want lots of people in the corridors, etc.

Saying that it's only the current 3rd years who were affected by having their 1st year like that. My current 2nd years have had all their teaching f2f from Year 1 onwards.

So unless people are saying it's only current 3rd year students who act like people are talking about I don't think the online teaching is the cause. Unless it's a knock on effect from covid and being at home for a year earlier on in their life......but you can't blame the universities for that!

Agree! Funnily enough in my case it was the students who stopped showing up and started demanding we go back online because they were scared of getting covid!!

I think it is this was well. My OH friend works at UCL in engineering and says the calibre of young people in terms of work ethic has really dropped and there is a real sense of entitlement as they are paying.

@ludocris

The packing up early and arriving late thing could in some cases be down to timetabling issues however. Depending on how big the campus is and how flexible the curriculum, some students have to go from one lecture to another within a very short timeframe, and they could be at opposite ends of campus.

Crap, unreliable public transport too, unfortunately, in a lot of places, especially where the Uni has grown and expanded so much that students have to live in different towns, tens of miles away from the Uni because of insufficient campus and/or local accommodation. Not helped by the "anti car" agenda of so many Unis that prevent students from driving between home and Uni!

There are lots of reasons why people may arrive late or have to leave early.

Every lecturer I know was still on campus throughout covid - we just weren't allowed to have the students there. I myself worked on campus throughout. Our careers actually depend on the research we do, and if you're a STEM researcher that often needs labs and IT systems we can't access remotely.

I think the problem actually starts earlier in education. Schools are hamstrung and have to spoon feed students every bit of knowledge or there will be hell to pay at an inspection, and so students just expect the spoon feeding to continue. But it can't because they're adults, and we don't have time to hold their hands through every little thing as if we're their parents.

I think they think the only job we have is teaching so we should be able to devote endless attention to their foibles, struggles and feelings... Teaching is meant to be 30% of my time, but the rest is research, grant applications, outreach and whatever mad admin tasks some monster at the university has dreamt up to punish us. All for 32k a year and a bunch of students you don't recognise (because they never come in or turn their cameras on) telling you you don't work hard enough to please them and the university passing them regardless of how good/plagerised their work is.