In my experience of the French people that I have met, I have come across a lot of racism, from the majority of them.

[sillyme563]

There I said it. I have been married to my French husband now for ten years. I am Muslim and asian.

In the last ten years, I have never heard so much racism as I have in my entire life. Blatant, horrible, disgusting racism - most of it against either black people or Arabs/ Muslims.

'I would never go to South Africa. The safari experience would be good but I don't like black people'
'Gracie's Corner will spoil my child'
'Hijab wearing women are backwards'

ad infinitum.

I just spent the weekend with a couple of our friends from Paris. We walk past two girls in a hijab - cue obligatory conversation about how hijab wearing is wrong. I have to put up with these kinds of comments constantly, from his family and friends, and it's just sad because I have nieces who wear the hijab, and I can't invite them to things where the French are going to be there. I am getting so sick and tired of it, and I just don't have the inclination to be some sort of racial-social justice warrior to argue with all these nasty comments.

@MassageForLife
He's not part of the problem, we are in the same boat and neither of us engage in the conversations. As I have said previously. If you have ever even had these kinds of experiences you might understand why. It is exhausting to constantly be some sort of social justice warrior, because people, like you, like @Wonkasworld like others on this thread completely disregard people's lived experience of racism. The conversations get twisted and derailed and picked apart until you're basically just told to shut up and stop complaining. I don't want to have to keep arguing with racist people. I want them to stop being offensive.

Have the French ever pretended otherwise?? I thought they explicitly rejected multiculturalism and its complexities, you are French, but there will be no accommodations of religious requirements or expectations of this in public life.

In many ways, the "well thinking" sections of society are hypocrites. They deplore France’s attitude to multiculturalism but when they go on holiday there or move there to "live the French dream", they usually seek out the monoculture: they come to france for a vision of untouched 20th century france

Are they hypocrites or confused?

I think you see something similar with visitors to Japan, Many of them don't have a real problem with Japan not taking a multi-cultural approach, but they can't seem to articulate why it's ok for Japan, but not other western countries.

It's not just a preference thing because they clearly think it's in part a moral issue.

I agree with this. It’s interesting the distinction

When I did my French A level at evening class about 20 years ago now one of the verbal parts I had to present to the class was to do with the “veil” but it meant headscarf too. Basically I had to speak and explain why the French are secular and also that it wasn’t just headscarves they were banning but also crucifixes and Stars of David and other religious symbols. It was interesting explaining the argument from both sides because in my text and research I had eg a Muslim woman stating all the reasons she wanted and liked to wear a headscarf and then if I recall correctly a bank cashier saying she wanted to wear a crucifix but the bank wouldn’t allow it. The big difference here though is the person wearing the crucifix wouldn’t get verbally abused for it whereas the Muslim woman could and had got verbal abuse for it. It certainly got me thinking at the time about the rights of Muslim women to wear what they liked (or not) on their heads.

@Rudderneck - good dollop of post colonial Anglo Saxon guilt?

Rejection of multicultural societies is one way to annoy people, acceptance of multicultural society will also annoy people. It seems any society can make a choice or indeed change it. In abstract terms, the UK could become more "French" in terms of this policy, or carry on as it does already. It's a choice.

still doesn't answer why you would be "friends" with these people.
Your in-laws, we can understand it's tricky, you can't pick different ones, but "friends"?

Why would anyone be friends with racist, or antigay or anyone hateful you don't agree with?

I have experienced plenty of racism in the UK, one of the reasons why I chose not not spend my life here, I didn't keep racist friends.

I'm not dismissing people's lived experience of racism at all. That's why I'm putting the onus on him to be an ally, rather than on you to fight your own corner.

I don't want you to argue with racist people. I want the people around you that are not racists to be proactive in speaking up for you. And considering that these are his friends and family, it's absolutely on him to do that. They aren't going to change unless they are challenged and made to see how awful their opinions are.

As the saying goes 'if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem'.

I haven't lived in France for 20 years so can't speak for what's it's like now. But my impression was of a society far less integrated than the uk with each race socialising and living amongst their own kind.

I worked in a school and even there the Arab kids hung out with Arabs, the whites (or "the French" as they called themselves ) with the whites etc etc.

I lived there when Le Pen was voted through to the next round of the elections and it was quite an eye opener.

I do wonder if some of it comes from the secularism of France with any kind of religious expression (and hence tolerance) frowned upon.

I agree that the French are more overtly racist in my experience. In 1996 a man working at the American embassy was going for a jog/run through the nearby Parc Monceau (8ème arrondissement, diplomatic quarter etc). The police shot him in the leg. Why? Simply because he was a black man running in the early morning, probably 7/8am. Nowadays it would have gone viral but then I don't think much happened except for an official apology I suppose.

Yes many French people are blatantly racist. But when I'm there I live Black life in terms of events, restaurants, nightlife etc so I really couldnt care less. Im uninterested in people like that. I do sometimes visit tourist attractions but as Im not interacting with them, its fine. A friend was refused entry to a French restaurant and when she asked why, was given nothing beyond a shoulder shrug and smirk. Personally Id not have bothered, wonderful mix of cultures there so go elsewhere to eat, being served food by people who hate you is not a good idea.

UK racism is a bit more refined isn't it 😏

It's surprising to think that someone could marry and live with a racist without being aware of it. I believe @TheLightSideOfTheMoon is suggesting that the original poster might also harbor prejudice towards other races - hence the birds of a feather comment.

My feelings are similar. I would rather an open racist, than the awful daily racism I have to navigate in almost every situation in the UK.

In France they have no data on ethnic minorities killed by police/in police custody. The claim is because they don’t see colour. The truth is the authorities won’t acknowledge colour and the stats would make them look bad.

I do wonder if some of it comes from the secularism of France with any kind of religious expression (and hence tolerance) frowned upon.

I think it comes from deep ingrained racism and colonialism. They’re perfectly tolerant of Catholicism - it’s much more socially acceptable to be Christian in France than it is here.

Their record in WWII of going out of their way to round up and hand over French Jews to the Nazis was appalling.

They’ve never had to confront the consequences of Vichy and the far right in the way Germany had to, De Gaulle, in a masterstroke, told the French after the war they had all been on the side of the Résistance and airbrushed collaboration. Even today French do not talk about that period on their history.

@Mirabai

sadly there are several other countries who did the same in WWII and I’m sure outdid France. Poland, the baltic states and Ukraine really don’t like to talk about it either.

Yes, despite their revolution, they seem to cope with nun's habits and head coverings pretty well, and the whole country pretty much grinds to a halt on Ascension Day. It's just Muslim head coverings they aren't keen on.

But obviously they are far from the only country which finds it hard to tolerate diversity and our current government is actively trying to reverse multi culturalism so I'm not suggesting the French are any worse than other countries.

It's true that despite being secular in France we have shit loads of (catholic) bank holidays...To be truly secular these should be eradicated and replaced with new historical dates

but - playing devil's advocate - surely it's swings and roundabouts. i.e. for the EDL/BNP to get into power here in the numbers the NF poll in France millions of people would have to agree with their (racist) views/hold similar views themselves? The fact that the majority of people in britain don't endorse such views (or at least not enough to prioritise their voting alone those lines) whereas a high proportion of french voters do suggests it can't just come from the top - the 'government' aren't just placed in power in france unelected to then influence the poor, easily led voters minds - they are elected on the basis of overtly racist policies.

@easylikeasundaymorn I agree with you but don't you think this has already happened since brexit? I have certainly faced a manifold increase in aggression and racism since then. its like suddenly everyone had a license to be racist. that includes people from the Asian community as well btw (that would be a whole other thread!). funny how they are against immigrants coming over here lol

You are correct . Many of the pro E.U. middle class don’t really care about anti- blackness or racism against brown people whether it’s in the UK or other parts of Europe .

But they get all up in arms at the idea of their adult child not being able to travel as freely in Europe as they were able to when they were younger or their Polish cleaner not being able to remain in the UK

Interesting point…you might just be right 🤷🏽‍♀️

De Gaulle, in a masterstroke, told the French after the war they had all been on the side of the Résistance and airbrushed collaboration. Even today French do not talk about that period on their history.

completely untrue and inaccurate.

Collaboration is widely known in France as part of the war. "collabo" is a well known and understood insult, probably a lot less used these days but people get it.

Collaboration is taught as school, and so are the summary executions, the women having their head shaved immediately after the war.

It's always interesting to compare the history curriculum between countries.

Agree, bathrobeandpie, I quoted that post without fully reading the last part.

No-one from a country which wasn't occupied by the Germans can take the moral high ground over those who were. The consequences for resistance were so great that none of us know how we would have behaved in that situation. We can condemn the collaborators without pretending they are a feature of the moral character of the countries involved.