In my experience of the French people that I have met, I have come across a lot of racism, from the majority of them.

[sillyme563]

There I said it. I have been married to my French husband now for ten years. I am Muslim and asian.

In the last ten years, I have never heard so much racism as I have in my entire life. Blatant, horrible, disgusting racism - most of it against either black people or Arabs/ Muslims.

'I would never go to South Africa. The safari experience would be good but I don't like black people'
'Gracie's Corner will spoil my child'
'Hijab wearing women are backwards'

ad infinitum.

I just spent the weekend with a couple of our friends from Paris. We walk past two girls in a hijab - cue obligatory conversation about how hijab wearing is wrong. I have to put up with these kinds of comments constantly, from his family and friends, and it's just sad because I have nieces who wear the hijab, and I can't invite them to things where the French are going to be there. I am getting so sick and tired of it, and I just don't have the inclination to be some sort of racial-social justice warrior to argue with all these nasty comments.

It’s the same now. I’ve lived in a very well to do part of a French city for 15 years now, and I’m still shocked when otherwise totally normal / reasonable-seeming people come out with blatantly racist statements about North Africans / ‘Arabs’. French people are gradually a lot more direct than Brits, so the racist stuff just comes straight out with a shrug, no big deal, everyone knows that Arabs are dirty, cheats, lazy, bad drivers, thieves, conmen, sexist, and worse.

i had an interesting chat with a French colleague: we work together in a high school so the subject of the dress code came up. He (white) grew up in an area with a lot of North African families, his best friends at school were all from Arab families. He reckons that when the French think of ‘racisme’, they equate it with what they see / hear happening in the US. They don’t equate it what happens in France because it’s so deeply ingrained to look down on ‘Arabs’, it isn’t seen as racism.

In France multiculturalism is not a seen as a good thing: incomers are expected to assimilate, to live like the French. When they don’t, they are definitely seen as lesser or a troublemakers. If they don’t look French, don’t dress French, don’t speak French, don’t have the same French values, this is seen as a problem.

and it’s easy to dismiss because officially the state is race / colour blind. In all the years I’ve been here, I’ve never once been asked my race, religion or ethnicity in any government forms (and there are a lot!). This means that it is incredibly hard to make a robust link between race / ethnicity and poverty, success at school, qualifications, employment etc.

So YANBU.

I remember reading the book Lullaby in my French / British book group. There’sa scene in it where the main character, her DH and friends - all lawyers, doctors, bourgeois professionals - are talking about the difficulties of finding a nanny, and how much they hate having to rely on the Arabs /Africans, and God forbid they speak their own language in front of the children etc.

If a British author had British characters having that conversation, you’d know they wanted to show the characters as pretty despicable. My French friends didn’t bat an eyelid at this bit though, to them it was a completely normal conversation and of course you’d worry about your Arab nanny speaking Arabic with your children rather than French.

If it’s any consolation many French just (a) think that ANYONE non-French is inferior, not just Muslims, and (b) are unbothered enough to openly say these things (because they don’t care and everyone accepts that French are rude so they can get away with it).

now, British are just as racist and xenophobic (with same superiority complex) but they hide it better 🤣 under the veneer of politeness.
hence why Brexit vote was such a big surprise

@therealcookiemonster

there are actually large Muslim populations that never worn hijabs or similar attire historically and they are pretty unhappy at proliferation of the view that it is mandatory part of Islam

I'm french and I'm shocked when I go back and hear my own family making comments like that.... 😓
But I agree with @Pleaseme, a lot of it is about confirmism more than "race" (not everyone though). I worked there briefly in my 20s but kept getting comments about how I dressed/behaved because it's not in line (and it had nothing to do with hijab). The amount of peer pressure was huge, it was a relief for me to be back in the UK.

And regarding north Africa immigration, if you listen to the government/documentaries about it they will often celebrate the first generation of migrants for their "integration and assimilation" of the French culture.

Surley racism and not liking the hijab are different things?
One is an expression of faith and people are allowed to dislike religion.
That's different from comments about speficic race and being some way because you are one race.

France is a non secular society and they have had massive terrorist attacks, nice, battaclan etc and they have issues with assimilation.

I don't know where it all ends because the French won't change and people live there won't change from Algeria.

However on a side note the most open prolific racism I've ever encountered was in oz against aborigines

I am french and would have to agree that its a more racist society and particularly more islamophobic society. Its a kind of vicious cycle there as the government and wider society can be islamophobic however I would say also that the maghrébin population also doesn't want to integrate as much as many communities have integrated in the UK. So it's kind of a chicken and egg situation, who started what, who had the bad attitude first?
What I will say is that many older french people believe there wasn't an issue with the older generations who came to France in the 60s and 70s and that this more aggressive anti integration section is a new phenomenon from the younger generations. Which is strange.

France is "old fashioned" compared to the UK in that the government and most people believe france should be......Well, France. The aim is for France to be as it always has been, maybe just with better tech. The goal isn't to become some global melting pot or to become particularly progressive. Once you understand that you understand more of their thought process.

It does always make me confused when I hear anti brexit people in the UK talk about the racist UK as if in the EU all peoples of all ethnicities and cultures are being treated like Kings except for in England.

I didn't realise the secular state came in after or because of the revolution against catholic.

Lime

Absolutely and many modern immans are trying to assimilate both sexes into mosques in the same space and allowing ex Muslims to pray if they want and gsy Muslims.

As someone who has dual nationality French and British, I am going to agree with you OP. I lived in France as a teen and 'casual' or blatant racism was very common and people openly voiced this type of views.

We criticise the UK a lot but I think we are much better here at integrating people from different ethnicity and faiths than in France.

I also found France to have a deeply sexist and misogynist society still.

These type of threads are always the same. Smug, self righteous BS. Of course Brexit had to find its way in. The fact that the French nation has been denigrated is bad enough, but the UK always has to be pulled into the circus of a thread. Bore off.

If your dh does not challenge the views of his friends and family then he is just as bad in my view and you've made the wrong choice. Partners raise each other up and fight for each other. If yours isn't doing that then that is your biggest problem. Some people in France may well be racist but to say the whole country is, us a bit of a stretch. Im asian muslim and wpuld never libe there. Your dh is French but is he muslim?

Your issue isn't the whole country but those your dh chooses to surround himself with, you should have a deep think about that.

The original thread title, which has now been changed. Even op acknowledged it, replied as such, and changed it.

You weren't here to read the fecking thread title, before it was changed.

@LimePi actually if you go back in history most women from all cultures covered their hair. in more recently in some muslim countries women in certain social groups don't wear a hijab as a norm and this in some areas is more common now and this is entirely their choice. it should never be forced. but you cannot find a single Muslim theologian or any one who has studied islamic theology seriously that will say God has not decreed very directly that women cover their hair. now God also says in the Qur'an that there is no compulsion in religion so it should never be forced.

it can be difficult for others who are not Muslims to understand. Islam is not only a faith, but a way of life. from the way we sleep, the way we eat, what we eat, how we speak, even how we shower - there is a guideline for everything. the extent of practice or knowledge or opinions vary hugely. we don't expect others to agree with us and also start wearing hijab - we just don't want the comments, the judgement and the aggro.

There is this.

On the op I have found some experiences jarring (not at me but about people) as it is culturally not in line

I think some of the posters are confusing the racism triggered by recent rises in migration with longstanding issues with the North African ex colonies which are ingrained in French society. they have a brutal colonial legacy - the brits were running a tea party compared to the French and Belgians (look up king leopold II if you are interested - he is said to be responsible for around 16 million deaths in the Congo). then there was the franco-algerian war, which the French lost and there was a great deal of demonisation re the North Africans that happened then and I think those attitudes have persisted. I feel like Britain had a more benevolent (only relatively, not in objective terms) relationship with the colonie and through the commonwealth good feelings have to some extent remained.

of course like all nations there are good people and bad people. but let's not forget - they throw people wearing modest swim wear off beaches?!!! and have deep seated institutional racism.

From what I've read there are different interpretation all the time of the hadiths and it's this that causes the issues.
. Islam is am religion they dissent allowance self relection or criticism and if one grows up in a very strict muslin family to go agaisnt your parents or "uncles" is lol defying Allah himself and that causes massive issues with control and being free to do what you want.

Two Muslim families and one will allow the if daughter any modern western freedoms, to have perosnal body automity, freedom to study what she wants including art and drama and freedom of boy friends and who to marry outside the faith.
Another family will stop their daughter from seeing people, control what she's wears, everything she does, she will not allowed to study art or drama, her bed will be checked for period and she will be married at 18 to whom the parents deicide and probably someone's from abroad. She will live in a very strict set of rules dictated to her from night until day.

That's the problem.

*awful typos sorry.... Like not lol.

In Aceh (Indonesia) I have seen very little girls wearing the hijab, but there it was usually a white, lace-edged one, and was told they wanted to wear one because it’s pretty, and they want to wear what the big girls do.

(I did wonder about all that washing and ironing…)

Islam is not only a faith, but a way of life. from the way we sleep, the way we eat, what we eat, how we speak, even how we shower - there is a guideline for everything.

and this is why assimilation is such a challenge.

It’s easy for me - white, British, culturally Christian - to assimilate into French culture and society. Doesn’t require any lifestyle shifts at all. I eat pork in the cantine, I dress the same (albeit less stylishly), I speak French and the language I speak with my family is valued rather than denigrated, I look the same.

older generations of Islamic migrants were more willing to go along with assimilation: younger generations are not.

barbieofswanlake · Yesterday 09:47

I get so wound up by this. My family are obsessed with France, and particularly since Brexit they constantly bang on about how racist the U.K. is and how they would far prefer to live in France, down to downright pettiness such as sharing French flag on social media during football games etc, even though they don't watch football! my husband is of Middle Eastern descent and we had an appalling experience in France when we lived there briefly due to blatant overt racism , but they just dismiss his lived experience as it doesn't fit their narrative.

Yes - I know people like this and they really irritate me! If there's one category of people I can't stand, it's people who won't acknowledge things that don't fit their narrative - that's real prejudice.

I’ve noticed more racism in France (not just Paris), than living in England, but certainly not all French people are racist of course!

@RoyalImpatience what the religion says and what people practice are entirely different things. what you described as being the more 'extreme' example is basically against the fundamental values and beliefs of Islam. many conflate culture and religion. and the first is an example of not following the religion at all (which is obviously a choice and 100% up to the individual).

people start throwing around terms like hadith, without having any understanding of it. not saying that's you as I don't know what your background is. I am happy to explain how differences in opinion work if you let me know how much research you have done so far and whether you have a formal education background on this topic so i can explain in way accessible to you. opinions and decisions in Islam are not arbitrary but have clear systems of analysis and referencing and most people (including muslims) have very little knowledge of the theological processes.

@ForthegracegoI why should there be a need to assimilate to be accepted? would you expect vegans to change their lifestyle to fit in with meat eaters? or for immigrants to stop speaking their mothertongue all together? how about live and let live? we are all different. it's possible to get on with people that are very different - it's just a question of having an open mind and the right exposure.

our common humanity is connection enough to create a community. and a truly positive community accepts and celebrates diversity in all its forms.