In my experience of the French people that I have met, I have come across a lot of racism, from the majority of them.

[sillyme563]

There I said it. I have been married to my French husband now for ten years. I am Muslim and asian.

In the last ten years, I have never heard so much racism as I have in my entire life. Blatant, horrible, disgusting racism - most of it against either black people or Arabs/ Muslims.

'I would never go to South Africa. The safari experience would be good but I don't like black people'
'Gracie's Corner will spoil my child'
'Hijab wearing women are backwards'

ad infinitum.

I just spent the weekend with a couple of our friends from Paris. We walk past two girls in a hijab - cue obligatory conversation about how hijab wearing is wrong. I have to put up with these kinds of comments constantly, from his family and friends, and it's just sad because I have nieces who wear the hijab, and I can't invite them to things where the French are going to be there. I am getting so sick and tired of it, and I just don't have the inclination to be some sort of racial-social justice warrior to argue with all these nasty comments.

@therealcookiemonster thank you

This is a chat forum not a university lecture.

The first example most certainly is not not following the religion at all, it's my friends family!!

They observe but in their way.

The second example is something I've come across several times from 2 girls at school who were never allowed to socialise with us..
A friend later on who had to run away from home and then later on with 3 girls whose lives are I dominated by the uncles and brothers.

When isis were in full flow there was lots of discussion on hadiths and interpreting the hadiths and how they can trap you.

There are progressive immans here and in Turkey who want to allow men and women to pray together, with people who have left the religion and gay people.

I don't actually agree that assimilation is the way to go at all - I think it's causing huge problems in France that are only going to get worse. For all the talk of egalité it's a very elitist society, and immigrant communities are inevitably on the bottom of the status pile. I grew up in the UK (albeit not in the most multi-cultural of locations), but 'live and let live' is definitely my default setting. I'm reporting what I've observed in speaking with French friends, colleagues, neighbours. I think @Loulou599 put it well: France is "old fashioned" compared to the UK in that the government and most people believe france should be......Well, France. The aim is for France to be as it always has been, maybe just with better tech. The goal isn't to become some global melting pot or to become particularly progressive. Once you understand that you understand more of their thought process. This is definitely the attitude that I have encountered in France.

So in recent weeks, we've had Australia, the UK and now France as being the most racist countries. Always attacks upon the west. Funny that.

@RoyalImpatience not much of a chat if you are not prepared to hear some information from someone who actually has a lifetime of experience being a Muslim, working with Muslims in community organisations and studying Islam?

there are certain core principles which if not followed takes one outside the faith. it's like you can't be a vegetarian and eat meat. that is not to say that it is not a valid choice to eat meat. as far as I am concerned people can practice however they wish (and they can still be Muslims, because faith is different from practice). this is not about judgement, its about facts and what is the majority theological opinion is.

the so called progressive scholars are not scholars. if you give individual examples, I can clarify... but wait, you are not here for a university lecture... or to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about. rather you think it's OK to tell me (a Muslim who studies islam) what my religion entails because you have a few Muslim friends. on that basis, let me tell you how to fly a plane because I have been on one.

@therealcookiemonster

and yet there are large Muslim populations who had very different traditional headdresses which did not cover their hair completely. Maybe you need to educate yourself on Tatars, Kazakhs, etc. Hijab and full hair coverage is alien to them

So the first lot of posts don't quite correlate with the new title?
Why's there no message from hq to say they've edited it? Don't they usually?

@LimePi look clearly you are here to make your own point and not have a discussion so I am not interested in prolonging this conversation beyond this post. i never said 'full head covering', i never defined hijab but anyway. carry on with what ever your view on Islam is because nothing I say will change what you think and I am good with that. sincerely hope you have a nice day :-)

I’m not saying the West isn’t racist but often it does seem really easy to target the West.

I’ve got a French Moroccan friend and yes she says the French can be racist and she’s experienced this there (she’s lived in UK for years) but she’s always been western looking.

And then a German Turkish friend of mine, when she went home to Turkey to a beach with her family and wore what she always wore, swimsuit/bikini, she and her family (including her father) got abuse for what they were wearing, calling the daughters sluts, from a Muslim man in Muslim dress with his family. How’s that right?

French woman here, been in the UK for more than 20 years.
I tend to agree with you, but I will also say that the concept of laïcité has been an excuse for the racists to be more outspoken.
If the government says it's okay, nay, a republican duty to dislike the hijab, then people will happily be vocal about it.
If the done thing is to be respectful of all religions and to not openly criticise the hijab/ burqa, then the racists will be more reluctant to speak their minds.
In other words, it could be that there are a similar number of racists in the UK, but that they feel less confident to voice their bigoted views ( to some extend, Brexit has demonstrated this too).
Still very worrying though, because surely a nation that enables bigoted views should really have a good rethink.
But I fear it's not going to get better any time soom.
I'm glad I don't live in France any more, put it this way.

I think this is an interesting point.

We tend sometimes to use a really broad definition of racism, when sometimes what is going on might much better or more accurately be described a different way.

There are a lot of cultures across the world that has a strong preference for social integration and want, in their own country, people to largely fit in with the dominant culture, speak the same language, etc. The French obviously, I would say the Nordic countries have some of this, they can be very socially conformist, Japan is another huge example.

It's not necessarily (though sometimes it is) that they think other cultures are bad in other countries. But they value a fairly homogeneous society, not racially but culturally. But of course race and culture can correlate.

I also think people in the UK, and actually the US as well, have become used to hearing this constant refrain of how racist and unaccepting they are, and kind of just accept it, without realizing the extent to which they are societies that allow for a huge amount of independence and variation compared to a lot of other places.

That's a very British POV!

@Rudderneck lol. oh no did I assimilate by accident? very much brought up with this mindset in Bangladesh, where these values are celebrated. also to probably the surprise of many (including many muslims), these are core islamic values.

The interpretation of the hadith is up for debate and this was questioned as the issue during isis because there is no one central leader like the pope.. And why there are such extremes.

@therealcookiemonster

Look at the end of the day you could be micky mouse, I'm sure you are not and that you are a Muslim.

I'm not lecturing you or anyone those are simply my experiences.

You can Google progressive immans and loads will come up there is particularly large movement in Turkey.

There was a wonderful imman here who was sadly driven out and given death threats and severely critused by Muslim council Britain

I would Google for you and link but can't see how too

@therealcookiemonster can you link your thread please as I can’t find it. Thanks

Sorry to your AMA thread

@Lollypop701 not sure how to link threads sorry but it's under the name tt9 (I nc because I thought my current name suited me better lol). I think the hijab question is addressed pretty early on, not that it's a long thread

@RoyalImpatience it feels like you are not interested in what I have to say so why not let's leave it here. I could explain why what you are saying is inaccurate, but what would be the point? I sincerely hope social services were called for the two girls you describe being abused by their families and I hope they managed to escape and recover from such horrific behaviour. you are free to have whatever opinion of Islam you wish, not my business :-) its a free country after all. hope you have a lovely day xx

What do people actually mean by assimilation? Are we talking about how a person dresses, whether they speak the language of the country they have settled in?

I think the issue becomes more complicated when you start to look at actual beliefs and values, e.g. homosexuality being sinful, the need to impose religious or other beliefs on others, the way women are treated.

A person is not likely to change their beliefs just because they move to another country and I think this is a very difficult issue to resolve. Belief systems and the laws of the country will often clash and if we say that people have to assimilate do we mean that they have to accept the majority beliefs and values of the country they are living in?

It doesn't necessarily mean they will change their beliefs but do they then have to live in such a way that, for example, although they may think that women are lesser, they cannot interact with women in general society in this way. And if they have such a belief is this even possible?

I am not talking specifically about Muslims here but any different way of living or different values from the majority in the country you are living in.

I think this culture clash gives rise to so many problems and does add fuel to the fire of racism.

Love how you choose to ignore everyone on this thread telling you about their lived experience.. no none of that matters or counts 😂

How have I ignored them? I just haven't addressed them. Instead, I addressed the way those countries are accused of being racist. No if, buts or maybes but everyone is racist.

And I love how you're ignored everyone that has said that if your husband isn't addressing the issue when it's raised, then he's part of the problem.

I think they’re more openly prejudiced there (as in culturally) from experience.

Touché 👏

What do people actually mean by assimilation? Are we talking about how a person dresses, whether they speak the language of the country they have settled in?

It can mean all of this and a lot more. In France it means accepting that the state is secular, and not wearing any ‘ostentatious religious garments or symbols’ in public spaces. This means no headscarves, crosses, kippah in schools. This means no burkinis on beaches or in public swimming pools. This means mums in headscarves not being allowed to accompany a school class on a school trip to a museum.

Egalite means no ‘special’ treatment for social groups. So no male-free swimming sessions for Muslim women in public pools. No halal or kosher meal options in state school. No translations of official signs / notices / info brochures - French only (and increasingly English, bizarrely). Égalité also means very much equality between women and men, so zero tolerance for cultures that dont respect this.