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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

In my experience of the French people that I have met, I have come across a lot of racism, from the majority of them.

229 replies

sillyme563 · 23/10/2023 08:37

There I said it. I have been married to my French husband now for ten years. I am Muslim and asian.

In the last ten years, I have never heard so much racism as I have in my entire life. Blatant, horrible, disgusting racism - most of it against either black people or Arabs/ Muslims.

'I would never go to South Africa. The safari experience would be good but I don't like black people'
'Gracie's Corner will spoil my child'
'Hijab wearing women are backwards'

ad infinitum.

I just spent the weekend with a couple of our friends from Paris. We walk past two girls in a hijab - cue obligatory conversation about how hijab wearing is wrong. I have to put up with these kinds of comments constantly, from his family and friends, and it's just sad because I have nieces who wear the hijab, and I can't invite them to things where the French are going to be there. I am getting so sick and tired of it, and I just don't have the inclination to be some sort of racial-social justice warrior to argue with all these nasty comments.

OP posts:
AtrociousCircumstance · 23/10/2023 09:15

It seems a bit off for posters to hint that you should remain silent about this for fear of being racist to the French. As a POC you have every right to identify the racism you experience. In your experience racism is more overt in France.

As apps have said the hijab is a different issue - it’s a custom which involves women’s freedom being limited and discussion should be welcomed. However when it’s just an excuse to be racist and othering, that is a problem.

Mirabai · 23/10/2023 09:16

BitofaStramash · 23/10/2023 09:01

The French people you hang out with are racist.

To assign that behaviour based on those individuals to an entire nation is errr....racist.

This isn’t about individuals. Some people in France are racist and some aren’t - the point is though that the culture is more racist, overt racism is much more acceptable and un-acknowledged, and there’s much more institutional racism.

Agnes12 · 23/10/2023 09:16

To understand the difference between the level of racism in the UK and in France, I think you have to have lived in France and speak the language fluently.

smilesup · 23/10/2023 09:18

I have been to France several times with white only friends and a couple of times with black friends. The racism is blatant, you get it in this country too but no way as openly and often.

Mirabai · 23/10/2023 09:19

Agnes12 · 23/10/2023 09:16

To understand the difference between the level of racism in the UK and in France, I think you have to have lived in France and speak the language fluently.

Yes this is probably true. Although you don’t need language to see things like the separatism of banlieues for example.

Dweetfidilove · 23/10/2023 09:24

You and your husband are as bad as the people you’re complaining about.

They say show me your friends and I’ll tell you who you are.

How any self-respecting non-racist / non-racist sympathiser can be around this bile is beyond me.

LakieLady · 23/10/2023 09:25

The fact that the French equivalent of the BNP came second in the presidential elections with over 40% of the vote would suggest to me that a lot of French voters are racist, but that doesn't mean that the French as a whole are racist.

bathrobeandpie · 23/10/2023 09:27

I have encountered more racism in the UK than in France,
does it mean every Brit is racist?

Most of it against black people, Pakistani, Indian people, Irish people.

The level and the culture of racism and anti-islam, anti-jewish, anti-travellers in the UK is shocking. The attitude towards other European countries just as bad.

So is it BU to find the Brits or the French racists?

Yes, because any generalisation is unreasonable.

AfterWeights · 23/10/2023 09:31

The hijab debate is complicated in france as they have a very clear dedication to separation of church/religion and state, which includes prohibitions on religious attire and symbols in schools/hospitals etc.

There is no country where everyone is racist and no country where no one is. I can believe things are said aloud in france that aren't in (for example) uk or germany, but its not fair to say everyone in france is racist.

LadyGrinningSoul85 · 23/10/2023 09:33

I'm not a racist person by any means, and I hate stereotyping, but I have always said that the rude stereotypical french person has been pretty much bang on accurate, if any of my many visits are anything to go by.

I'm polite, to the point where I come off as a little awkward, as I don't want people to dislike me, but the second I open my mouth and a British accent comes out, you can see the instant dislike from any french person I talk to.

I enjoy traveling to France, but I also dread interacting with french people, because the rudeness and arrogance (not all, but massively in general) is astounding there.

So I don't find the OP's experience all that surprising, unfortunately.

Original poster
sillyme563 · 23/10/2023 09:35

For me, the conversation about the hijab is this:

It is not the business of the government, or individuals, to tell women what they can and cannot wear. For people who have an opinion on the hijab and how gross and backwards it is, I would ask them if they know anything else about the theology of Islam - or if the extent of their knowledge comes solely from culture wars. This is an argument made by non-muslims (mainly men in government), to morally 'regulate' muslim women, whose voices are never part of the debate.

OP posts:
junbean · 23/10/2023 09:37

That's horrible! The world is such a nasty place because of humans. Everything you said reminds me of where I'm from in the US. Even after living in it for so long I still find it deeply disturbing. I'm sorry it's affecting you so much as well, it's really impossible. You can't change the whole culture. You probably can't change even a single person. It's so sad really, especially about your hijabi family. 💐

rockinginarockingchair · 23/10/2023 09:39

California is racist to everyone.
Bedford uk is racist to white people. (queen park is the worst)
South africa is racist to white people very dangerous as well.

bonzaitree · 23/10/2023 09:41

I think we’re just as racist in the UK, we’re just not as honest about it.

HoldOnMiGenna · 23/10/2023 09:41

In my opinion as a Black Brit, French people who are racist just say the quiet bit out loudly, unlike White people in the UK, even London who are racist.
But I cannot get worked up about the hijab. I hate the symbolism of it, no matter how many claim that they willingly wear it. With that, I stand with the French open condemnation of it, even if that means that the French are hypocrites pertaining to indigenous misogyny.
Sometimes it's better to be a hypocrite than a phoney.

bathrobeandpie · 23/10/2023 09:43

sillyme563 · 23/10/2023 09:35

For me, the conversation about the hijab is this:

It is not the business of the government, or individuals, to tell women what they can and cannot wear. For people who have an opinion on the hijab and how gross and backwards it is, I would ask them if they know anything else about the theology of Islam - or if the extent of their knowledge comes solely from culture wars. This is an argument made by non-muslims (mainly men in government), to morally 'regulate' muslim women, whose voices are never part of the debate.

racism aside ,you are completely missing the most important point.

The laws in France were created against the Catholic Church more than a century ago. France is fiercely secular. Now you can agree with that or not, but it's a different debate.

The French find the idea of having a CE catchment state school shocking, and it would be unacceptable to held a state school Christmas carol service in a church there.

Have you even asked a woman wearing a hijab in England (or a Kameez for that matter) if she ever encounters racism?

barbieofswanlake · 23/10/2023 09:47

I get so wound up by this. My family are obsessed with France, and particularly since Brexit they constantly bang on about how racist the U.K. is and how they would far prefer to live in France, down to downright pettiness such as sharing French flag on social media during football games etc, even though they don't watch football! my husband is of Middle Eastern descent and we had an appalling experience in France when we lived there briefly due to blatant overt racism , but they just dismiss his lived experience as it doesn't fit their narrative. And we were in Paris, not some tiny village where they'd never seen a brown person, horrible, horrible place and I fear politically more of Europe is going to go the same way

AfterWeights · 23/10/2023 09:50

Fundamentally western culture will not like a cultural requirement on women (eg hijab) where the same does not apply to men. No most westerners don't know a great deal about the theology of Islam, they don't have to for it conceptually to go against the grain of our own culture.

There's an expectation westerners will cover their head out of respect for the local culture in countries where its the requirement to do. In france the requirement is that religious garments & symbols etc have no place in schools & state buildings, it dates from the french revolution and is an important part of their history underpinning the french legal system, so I think the expectation is that people will respect French culture in that regard.

whiteroseredrose · 23/10/2023 09:50

YANBU.

Regularly in French elections the far right get a large % of the vote. Back in the day it was Jean Marie Le Pen now it is his daughter.

JayJayEl · 23/10/2023 09:52

@SaracensMavericks
"The comment about black people is 100% wrong. The hijab debate is a lot more controversial though."

What? Why?? Just because your government bans something, doesn't make them right (or any less racist/bigoted)!

HoldOnMiGenna · 23/10/2023 09:52

This reply has been deleted

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bathrobeandpie · 23/10/2023 09:56

And we were in Paris, not some tiny village where they'd never seen a brown person

It's 2023... that sort of attitude is shocking, to insist on seeing "small villages" as being full of backward people. Even if your small village is not full of Brit expats, or retired professionals, "brown people" are not aliens and unheard of FFS

itto · 23/10/2023 09:58

I actually find your comment very offensive. I’m French of French descent and I wear a hijab. How is covering my head disrespectful to my culture? How is my dress affecting anyone? And that’s nothing to do the western world, it’s very specific to France and it’s colonial past. I find France, as a state, openly racist, which invisibly doesn’t apply to all citizens. The kind of blatant racism that is openly said there, including from my own family, wouldn’t be tolerated here, and it certainly wouldn’t be repeated constantly on TV without any challenge. I personally couldn’t live it France, visit as little as I can because most of my family lives there, and I certainly wouldn’t raise my children there. And I am white with a French/ western sounding name, from a very middle class family. I can’t imagine the level of alienation French youth of African descent living in poorer suburbs go through.

JayJayEl · 23/10/2023 09:58

sillyme563 · 23/10/2023 09:35

For me, the conversation about the hijab is this:

It is not the business of the government, or individuals, to tell women what they can and cannot wear. For people who have an opinion on the hijab and how gross and backwards it is, I would ask them if they know anything else about the theology of Islam - or if the extent of their knowledge comes solely from culture wars. This is an argument made by non-muslims (mainly men in government), to morally 'regulate' muslim women, whose voices are never part of the debate.

👏👏👏

I can't get my head around people defending the French government's ban. Tell me they police crosses around people's necks. Eye roll

LunaNorth · 23/10/2023 09:59

I think they do police the wearing of crucifixes. I’m sure I read about a case concerning exactly that.

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