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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

In-laws should be more sensitive about 11+

105 replies

OnlyFrog · 21/10/2023 05:55

I’ll start by acknowledging this is definitely a first world problem.

So, back in their day my husband and his parents all passed the 11+ and went to grammar schools. All very bright and successful in their academic careers.

I did not pass the 11+, which was a painful blow for years, but I went to the local comprehensive, got As and A GCSEs, 4As and A level (no A *available back then), got a first in a science degree at Oxford, PhD, then did graduate medicine and now working as a doctor.

We currently live in a non-grammar school area but DH said we could consider moving over the county boundary to an area with grammar schools.

We were chatting about this with his parents who are pro moving and say there are lots of benefits to grammar schools. I said I didn’t want the kids to go through the 11+ as i think it does a lot of emotional harm if you don’t pass. MIL said the kids are bright so no reason why they shouldn’t pass!

I was annoyed by this as it seems to imply that not passing means you’re not bright.

DH thinks I’m being too sensitive to take it that way. I just felt insulated and annoyed that they can’t see the harm in selecting on a single test. I also don’t like the way they put down comprehensives as being for less bright kids. I am so grateful to my teachers for all their support.

AIBU to be pissed off and think they should be more sensitive?

OP posts:
CecilyP · 21/10/2023 09:35

We were chatting about this with his parents who are pro moving and say there are lots of benefits to grammar schools. I said I didn’t want the kids to go through the 11+ as i think it does a lot of emotional harm if you don’t pass. MIL said the kids are bright so no reason why they shouldn’t pass!

Which was a pretty stupid thing for her to say. Your academic success has proved that you are very bright. You were sitting there in front of her as living proof of a bright person who didn’t pass and yet she comes out with that. Insensitive and irrational!

FriedasCarLoad · 21/10/2023 09:44

I imagine they see that you're a great success and it don't imagine that it would still upset you.

Maybe if you explained how failing that one exam STILL affects you, decades later, and in spite of outstanding academic success, they might gain more insight into why you don't want to risk your child going through that.

AmandasFleckerl · 21/10/2023 09:48

CurlewKate · 21/10/2023 08:19

"It’s parents that create the judgment though."
Really? Do you think children are stupid?

No I don’t think children are stupid but their opinions on which schools are good and bad, the pressures of 11+ and the judgement they project onto their peers comes primarily from conversations with adults or overheard by adults. If you listen to what the children are saying you can hear their parents voices coming from their mouths.
Some parents become so consumed with getting their child into the ‘best’ school they lose all sense of what might be best for their child and how the process affects them.

Bluevelvetsofa · 21/10/2023 09:49

@JupiterJan I think it’s unfair to say that the parents of children in a grammar school care about their education, inferring that parents of children at comprehensive schools don’t. Surely most parents care about their children’s education, whether grammar, comprehensive or independent.

I’m sure there are experiences as a child that are carried through to adulthood, good or bad. The OP is clearly academically successful, but didn’t feel so at the time of 11+ and it has stayed with her. Maybe the in-laws spoke without thinking and were insensitive.

mugboat · 21/10/2023 10:28

My 11yo just got her 11plus results. We're in a superselective area- 1 grammar only for girls... 1400 entrants for 166 places. We did a bit of prep in yr4 and a lot of prep in yr5. She's very bright and is naturally good at maths/patterns and loves learning. I assumed she would get a place because she's clever and motivated and because we did the prep.

She didn't qualify. By 2 marks. Standardised marking- she's a September born too and know she will have had marks knocked off.

I haven't told her yet but she will be devastated. I am proud of her and her hard work and know she will do well at school. OP it's heartening to see how well you did at the comp. I'll remember that.

She will feel disappointed though because of all of the prep we did. She was competing against girls who have been having extra tuition from a much younger age and unfortunately this did make a difference in the marks.

I don't think you're being unreasonable, you have direct experience of how it feels to not get into the grammar and you don't want that for your children.

Aldicrispsareshit · 21/10/2023 10:31

I think you're being a bit oversensitive. That said I can see the merit in the Essex grammars for very bright children and would consider moving there if my kids had the ability but I wouldn't purposely move to Kent or similar for their system.

mugboat · 21/10/2023 10:31

rather disingenuous post by those saying "why do you care". most people care what others think about them... and most people consider the opinions of others...

HannahDefoesTrenchcoat · 21/10/2023 10:55

Even if the kids get their attitudes from their parents, the attitudes still exist.

Kids aren't daft and soon work out what Sparrow Table or Green readers mean.

Paradeofrain · 21/10/2023 11:08

Would you say the same about the Sat's If you hadn't done well in them?

If someone said your kids would do well in the Sat's because they were bright would you feel they were calling you not bright?

I agree that it seems like you've massively over valued a passing discussion about one of many exams primary kids might take

ScaryHellscape · 21/10/2023 11:22

Tbh many replies on this thread show why the PILs are unaware of how crass they are being - it’s seems that unless you have been through it, the ramifications of it are hard to understand.

ScaryHellscape · 21/10/2023 11:26

Paradeofrain · 21/10/2023 11:08

Would you say the same about the Sat's If you hadn't done well in them?

If someone said your kids would do well in the Sat's because they were bright would you feel they were calling you not bright?

I agree that it seems like you've massively over valued a passing discussion about one of many exams primary kids might take

This is a typical example of knowing absolutely nothing about the impact of living in a grammar area. Comparing SATs to the 11+ is actually hilarious.

Because the SATs aren’t visible to anyone. Everyone you go to school with knows you failed the 11+, and each day you go to your secondary modern in your uniform all the kids on public transport know too.

ActDottie · 21/10/2023 11:33

Yanbu grammar school isn’t the be Allen’s end all.

I grew up in a non grammar area and have achieved similar grades to you academically.

My dad went to grammar and he did well. My mum failed the 11+ so went to non grammar and she’s done just as well in terms of getting into a good uni etc.

Citrusandginger · 21/10/2023 13:05

It's true that bright children can do well anywhere. It's also true that your children's peers will have a stronger effect on their behaviour and wellbeing once they become teens and that this too can affect outcomes.

It's hard to admit that you want your children to have friends whose parents have similar values to you. But good schools tend to have self-selecting parents and it's OK to acknowledge that's generally a positive thing.

Paradeofrain · 21/10/2023 13:59

ScaryHellscape · 21/10/2023 11:26

This is a typical example of knowing absolutely nothing about the impact of living in a grammar area. Comparing SATs to the 11+ is actually hilarious.

Because the SATs aren’t visible to anyone. Everyone you go to school with knows you failed the 11+, and each day you go to your secondary modern in your uniform all the kids on public transport know too.

Show quote history

Yeah I live in a grammar area, went to a grammar and have a dc who sat out the exam and one who took it.

Many kids don't take it

I don't think there's any assumption that a kid in a comp uniform has "failed" anything

Some of the comps have grammar streams with the same uniform, lots of kids don't take it and there's a big emphasis on it being no a particularly accurate representation of anything

ScaryHellscape · 21/10/2023 14:03

“I don't think there's any assumption that a kid in a comp uniform has "failed" anything”

  1. that’s a bit naive at best
  2. comps don’t exist in fully grammar areas. Comp meaning comprehensive, including all abilities. The “top” 25% go to grammar so aren’t present in the other schools. These are essentially secondary moderns but have euphemistic names instead now like academy etc. Those that don’t sit the 11+ but are very capable are few & far between.
YouJustDoYou · 21/10/2023 14:07

I know a few people who went to grammars - parents spent a ton on tutors etc, then there was the cost of expensive school activities, clothes, outings etc. Not one of them, as adults, are in careers that needed a grammar education. One friends loves to boast about she was in a grammar, and "how smart she is", but it was all just a waste of time. I wouldn't force a kid to do it if they're not academically gifted.

Paradeofrain · 21/10/2023 14:13

ScaryHellscape · 21/10/2023 14:03

“I don't think there's any assumption that a kid in a comp uniform has "failed" anything”

  1. that’s a bit naive at best
  2. comps don’t exist in fully grammar areas. Comp meaning comprehensive, including all abilities. The “top” 25% go to grammar so aren’t present in the other schools. These are essentially secondary moderns but have euphemistic names instead now like academy etc. Those that don’t sit the 11+ but are very capable are few & far between.

No but your point was that people would know your score by your uniform and judge you when at least 2/3 of kids are in non grammar schools (due to both not passing and the significant number who abstain) and several of the grammar schools are within another school so have the same uniform.

CurlewKate · 21/10/2023 14:15

"I don't think there's any assumption that a kid in a comp uniform has "failed" anything"

I suppose it depends on the circumstances. Where I live, all the kids who go to state school go to either the grammar or the secondary modern (no comprehensive). And yes, people do notice uniforms. It's a small town, and kids in grammar uniforms get congratulated by people on the check out in Tesco on the first day of term!

ScaryHellscape · 21/10/2023 14:24

Paradeofrain · 21/10/2023 14:13

No but your point was that people would know your score by your uniform and judge you when at least 2/3 of kids are in non grammar schools (due to both not passing and the significant number who abstain) and several of the grammar schools are within another school so have the same uniform.

Show quote history

I’m not aware of any grammar schools within other schools. I am aware there are a few that have a top stream that they call a grammar stream, but it’s not a separate school.

Nevermind31 · 21/10/2023 14:32

I think it is important to try to go to a grammar school in an area why they have them - simply because they will be with peers whose parents care.
however, in a non grammar area all the brightest and those whose parents do care will go to the good comprehensives

CurlewKate · 21/10/2023 14:38

@Nevermind31 "simply because they will be with peers whose parents care."

As opposed to the kids in secondary moderns whose parents don't care? Right.

ScaryHellscape · 21/10/2023 15:00

CurlewKate · 21/10/2023 14:15

"I don't think there's any assumption that a kid in a comp uniform has "failed" anything"

I suppose it depends on the circumstances. Where I live, all the kids who go to state school go to either the grammar or the secondary modern (no comprehensive). And yes, people do notice uniforms. It's a small town, and kids in grammar uniforms get congratulated by people on the check out in Tesco on the first day of term!

Where I am too. There’s a huge amount of judgment and to pretend there isn’t is not helpful.

Mumof2teens79 · 21/10/2023 15:08

Paradeofrain · 21/10/2023 11:08

Would you say the same about the Sat's If you hadn't done well in them?

If someone said your kids would do well in the Sat's because they were bright would you feel they were calling you not bright?

I agree that it seems like you've massively over valued a passing discussion about one of many exams primary kids might take

Its not one of many exams primary kids might take though is it?
It's one of two, the other being SATS which don't the determine which school.you go to for the next 5 years I order to take your main school leaving qualifications...your GCSEs

SATs pressure is bad enough, let alone 11+

JupiterJan · 21/10/2023 15:42

Bluevelvetsofa · 21/10/2023 09:49

@JupiterJan I think it’s unfair to say that the parents of children in a grammar school care about their education, inferring that parents of children at comprehensive schools don’t. Surely most parents care about their children’s education, whether grammar, comprehensive or independent.

I’m sure there are experiences as a child that are carried through to adulthood, good or bad. The OP is clearly academically successful, but didn’t feel so at the time of 11+ and it has stayed with her. Maybe the in-laws spoke without thinking and were insensitive.

A lot of parents really dont care at all, and of course in the average comp many parents will, you will also get many who won't - but in a grammar all parents will

whiteroseredrose · 21/10/2023 16:19

I'd want the most appropriate school for my DC, regardless of my own history. Schools have changed a lot in the past 20 years.

In the OP's shoes I'd want to have a look at what the different schools have to offer and get a feel for them. Most will have open days every year. Which would suit the DC best? Are they strong on the arts, languages or science?

That might help with the decision as to whether the Grammars would be worth moving for.

If there is a great school that would really suit your DC, but they need to take an exam, would you say no because they may or may not pass?