In-laws should be more sensitive about 11+

[OnlyFrog]

I’ll start by acknowledging this is definitely a first world problem.

So, back in their day my husband and his parents all passed the 11+ and went to grammar schools. All very bright and successful in their academic careers.

I did not pass the 11+, which was a painful blow for years, but I went to the local comprehensive, got As and A GCSEs, 4As and A level (no A *available back then), got a first in a science degree at Oxford, PhD, then did graduate medicine and now working as a doctor.

We currently live in a non-grammar school area but DH said we could consider moving over the county boundary to an area with grammar schools.

We were chatting about this with his parents who are pro moving and say there are lots of benefits to grammar schools. I said I didn’t want the kids to go through the 11+ as i think it does a lot of emotional harm if you don’t pass. MIL said the kids are bright so no reason why they shouldn’t pass!

I was annoyed by this as it seems to imply that not passing means you’re not bright.

DH thinks I’m being too sensitive to take it that way. I just felt insulated and annoyed that they can’t see the harm in selecting on a single test. I also don’t like the way they put down comprehensives as being for less bright kids. I am so grateful to my teachers for all their support.

AIBU to be pissed off and think they should be more sensitive?

The adult judgment is very likely to come from DHs parents as well. We had this with my DC and the grandparents - the “bright” one that “smashed” it and went to a superselective and the other one that failed but got into grammar “are they coping ok there?” questions for years.

The other one has better results but shattered confidence. They picked up on all of it over the years, no matter the job we did as parents reassuring them.

I voted yanbu, but wanted to say that if you live in an area with good comprehensives do not put yourself through the hassle of moving to a grammar area! We’re in an area with good comps and having read threads in here I’m so grateful we never had to go through any of the grammar hassle and expense!

I think you're being over sensitive. Why do you care what they think?

Where I live the grammar school entrance means tutoring through year 5 with extra work sheets etc. Many DC are doing this in year 3 and 4 also.Failing to get a place means a blow for the child and an awful feeling of futility for everyone. The 'comprehensives' are not comprehensive in intake and , of course, the presence of grammars pushing up house prices means that there are many financially comfortable parents who then send their children to independent senior schools reducing the diversity of the ' comprehensive' schools even further.It is an awful system . Stick to your guns .In the end we all have to make the choices based on what is available to us at the time and what is best for our DC but moving , as you know, carries risks.

I would agree. And I say that as someone with 2 kids in super selective grammars.

We are very happy with the school and they are excelling. However, as PP said unthread, it’s not the destination, it’s the journey. Now luckily, our journey was ok, and destination great, but it could’ve been so different. My second child put so much pressure on themselves as their sibling was already at the super selective, and as much as we said it didn’t matter, DC2 felt enormous pressure to get in too. I felt enormous stress in case I had to give the news that “they weren’t good enough” even though I didn’t believe that.

If I’d known about the system earlier, I’d have never moved here. It has worked out well for us, but it was a stressful journey and not one I’d wish on anyone.

You took your junior child to do taster days in senior schools in a different county, to help you decide whether to move house? And the schools you approached were fine with accommodating a random, much younger child for a day?

If OP plans to move to a grammar area, she needs to start tutoring in Y3 or Y4, so a decision needs to be made early (if OP’s child is in Y6, it’s too late as the exam will have been and gone, and honestly even if their child is in Y5 they are probably cutting it fine for exam prep)

What did your Y3 child do during her taster days with the Y7s? How was she safeguarded, spending a day with such older children?

kindly I think you are being unreasonable. I am sure they didn’t even register that you didn’t pass the 11+. You are a perfect example of why one test at 11 doesn’t determine your future. I failed my 11+ however I still let both my kids take it. My attitude towards it was it is just a test, it doesn’t even say pass or fail it’s about meeting the required standard ( essentially top 25% of results on the day). We took the kids out to celebrate sitting the test bit the results. Both my kids passed but some of their friends didn’t after a few days of disappointment ( dependent on how the parents reacted, definitely less with parents who didn’t make it a big deal) the focus was very much on to SATs ( much more pressure I found) and ‘big’ school. Have a look at the school options decide if they would be right for your children, look at the alternatives in the grammar area and then make a decision for your kids, not how it makes/made you feel.

"It’s parents that create the judgment though."
Really? Do you think children are stupid?

I'm the same as you: failed the 11+ then went on to get an Oxford degree, now doing a PhD. In fairness, I had absolutely no preparation for the 11+ and no idea what to expect.

DD1 also didn't get in to a grammar school. She technically 'passed' the 11+ but still didn't get a place in the school because others scored higher.

I was offered a teaching position in the school that both DD1 and myself failed to get in to. Having seen it from a teacher's perspective, I turned down the offer. They focus very much on maths and science (not my subject nor where my daughter's talents lie) to the detriment of other subjects, rely heavily on the inherent motivation and intelligence of the pupils to not explore any advances in pedagogy (i.e. they favour chalk and talk, and teaching directly from a textbook), actively encourage an atmosphere of only taking part in something if you can excel in it ... in retrospect, I'm glad that neither of us got in. DD1 has yet to finish school so I don't know what her academic progress will be, but I know that the grammar school wouldn't have been right for her.

Honestly, OP, in the nicest possible way, get a grip. Your PILs are in no way obliged to consider your giant shoulder chip because you failed a children’s exam decades ago.

There was a kid in my DCs class, when finding out they had failed, the very next day badgered them to tell him what score their elder sibling got.

I’ll never forget my child coming home and miserably asking the question and why they wanted to know at the dinner table. We all agreed we’d lie and say he got the very top score just to piss the kid off.

The one that failed was talking about this the other day. Wanted to know if primary school teachers found out where they go to Uni. There was one particular teacher they remember giving them a hug when they got in to grammar on appeal.

In the nicest possible way, why the fuck would you want to give your DC a massive shoulder chip if it could be avoided?

@Meniscus "Your PILs are in no way obliged to consider your giant shoulder chip because you failed a children’s exam decades ago."

Once more with sensitivity....

No, of course they aren't. But the OP is entitled to feel what she feels. It's a feeling shared by many, many other people-a fact denied by the supporters of the system.

You’re being over sensitive. When they say your kids are bright and would likely pass I’m sure the last think they are thinking of is what happened to you 30 odd years ago.

I think you’ve never got over failing and I’d try to understand why that is. What was going on in your home life that this is how it’s impacted you and still has decades later.

your in-laws have done nothing wrong, this is a you problem.

I think it depends entirely on the provision in your area.

If the comprehensive is in an area where a lot of the more focused kids go to a school across the border then a lot of the teachers will spend a lot of their time doing crowd control. I worked in one of these schools for a long time. I'm a teacher. In this school, I worked with some of the most dedicated and hard working and caring staff you could wish to meet. But if I lived in the catchment area and had school aged kids I would not send them somewhere like that simply because they wouldn't be stretched enough and they would get frustrated.

Many will say good kids will do well anywhere, and to an extent, this is true. But what i saw on a daily basis was the frustration of these kids because staff spent so much time dealing with low level disruption. We were left with the kids where the parents didn't value education and if you don't have the backing of the parents, there's very little you can do about the low level disruption. Kids are rarely excluded for low level disruption. And so it goes on.
I would make the decision on the school where a child would thrive and that may be the local comprehensive. It depends on the area.

The English school system never fails to baffle me! I live and teach in Scotland and the 11+ test, grammars, comprehensives, catchments just seems like the most crazy, stressful system!

Mine are all in grammar as where we live the other options are expensive or not good. I thought it best as I went to a grammar, but not realising it’s now totally different. My kids were all tutored. Nowhere near the amount of some of the others who go there, and carry on being tutored throughout the school. But they worked hard to get in.

Now they are in (I know it sounds bad) I wish we got rid of them. They have turned into something awful. Their ‘superiority’ is essentially protected by the fact that the parents will plug the inevitable gaps or push their child to the max to ensure top grades. Kids are spoken to about dropping subjects if it will affect the figures.

The local grammars here have small catchments. You wouldn’t know that in the morning, some kids are travelling a county or city over. A surprisingly high number of kids only live in the UK while at school, the rest of the time they go ‘home’. The head presents this as a brilliant example of diversity; never mind all the local kids who live 2 minutes away who have given up and end up with a shit education as a result. There is also the social problems with traffic etc because of the travelling.

The test is now some alien gobbledegook, with questions that you have to be trained to answer and then never use again. Unless you are lucky with the multiple choice. I don’t believe anyone who says they didn’t prep their kid. It’s not possible, although a tiny number might pass with an element of luck.

If I had my time again I would never live in a grammar school area. But you don’t know that if you went to one yourself, it sounds like they were just like me thinking it’s the same as ‘back in the day’. Don’t listen and do you what you think is right.

It is, but it's not all of England
Despite this thread most of England doesn't have this system

I suspect that, in that moment, they simply forgot.

The 11+ is a hot button for me too. And I passed. That was 55 years ago and I still remember that moment when I discovered that I'd passed and all my friends had failed. I can still see their faces.

I don't think that people today recognise exactly what it was like when every child in the country had to sit that exam, and the majority failed and were (back then) basically consigned to the scrap heap.

It's probably the subject that makes me most viscerally angry. And yes, I have friend of my age, successful now, who have never quite got over failing the 11+

Oh bollocks. There doesn't have to be anything 'wrong' with OP, or her family's reaction to her result. The 11+ is a shitty and damaging exam. OP's in-laws were tactless or forgot about her result, and said something that stung, and would sting anyone.

And OP absolutely has the right to say that doesn't want to put her children through that system.

OP, I think what happened to you, back in the day, is neither here nor there. I'm surprised you're still bothered about not passing the 12 plus - how old are you? You are making decisions in the here and now in your specific location. What you did or didn't achieve is largely irrelevant because your children are not you, 20 years ago or whatever.

OP, I think what happened to you, back in the day, is neither here nor there

There are thousands and thousands of people who would beg to differ.

The only schools in my area that do taster days (usually in the Summer term for Year 5 children) are those who have falling numbers and are either RI or inadequate. The over subscribed good / outstanding schools don’t have to sell themselves too hard!

What nonsense, @saraclara. The OP is well into adulthood, and presumably met her PILs in adulthood. They do not need to tiptoe around her excessive sensibilities from decades ago, especially as failing the 11 + has had no measurable impact on her subsequent educational and professional life.

But yes, the UK education system is a mess, with all the desperate class aspirationalism and obsession with ‘getting ahead’. There should be no grammar system, no private schools, and everyone should attend the geographically nearest school.