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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
nc14 · 21/10/2023 14:10

@Trulywonderful First, you haven’t provided any evidence for the 30,000 figure. I very much doubt anyone knows what is in the hearts and minds of 30,000 people.

Second, 30,000 out of 2.2 million Palestinians in Gaza (and 2.7 million Palestinians in West Bank) doesn’t sound like ‘a large number’ proportionality to me even if it were true, so it isn’t fair to say ‘a large number of Palestinians are Nazis’ on this basis either.

It’s emotive propaganda though.

The comment I was responding to was this:
“You've also ignored the fact that Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 (iirc) hoping to exchange land for peace. And look where that has ended up: the biggest pogrom in almost 80 years.”

It was debated upthread. Just because I’m late doesn’t mean I don’t have a right to comment on it just because you don’t like what I have to say.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 14:35

nc14 · 21/10/2023 14:10

@Trulywonderful First, you haven’t provided any evidence for the 30,000 figure. I very much doubt anyone knows what is in the hearts and minds of 30,000 people.

Second, 30,000 out of 2.2 million Palestinians in Gaza (and 2.7 million Palestinians in West Bank) doesn’t sound like ‘a large number’ proportionality to me even if it were true, so it isn’t fair to say ‘a large number of Palestinians are Nazis’ on this basis either.

It’s emotive propaganda though.

The comment I was responding to was this:
“You've also ignored the fact that Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 (iirc) hoping to exchange land for peace. And look where that has ended up: the biggest pogrom in almost 80 years.”

It was debated upthread. Just because I’m late doesn’t mean I don’t have a right to comment on it just because you don’t like what I have to say.

Edited

Just quote the post you are addressing next time if you don't want to seem iffy timing with your post. I did say thought you had probably done it by accident. Which is why I laughed at the timing.

Not really sure you can say we don't know how Hamas fighters feel about anti jew regimes that mirror their own extreme Islamic one. Especially as they say the same stuff and carry nazi flags or paint swastikas on buildings etc. However if you feel their are a few nice non nazi guys that are misunderstood amongst Hamas then OK I believe you.

Also 30k plus people in a large number of people. We were talking about nazis in general and I explained that a large number of Palestinians believe nazi ideology. So were clearly nazis within that conversation. Clearly they do because 30k plus is not a small number especially if you remove the child population because they don't have a say in their parents beliefs. We can take the members of Hamas out that you feel may be tree huggers but that still leaves a large number of people.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 21/10/2023 14:42

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 14:35

Just quote the post you are addressing next time if you don't want to seem iffy timing with your post. I did say thought you had probably done it by accident. Which is why I laughed at the timing.

Not really sure you can say we don't know how Hamas fighters feel about anti jew regimes that mirror their own extreme Islamic one. Especially as they say the same stuff and carry nazi flags or paint swastikas on buildings etc. However if you feel their are a few nice non nazi guys that are misunderstood amongst Hamas then OK I believe you.

Also 30k plus people in a large number of people. We were talking about nazis in general and I explained that a large number of Palestinians believe nazi ideology. So were clearly nazis within that conversation. Clearly they do because 30k plus is not a small number especially if you remove the child population because they don't have a say in their parents beliefs. We can take the members of Hamas out that you feel may be tree huggers but that still leaves a large number of people.

Can we have references for this number of nazis?

The other day you were unable to google the population of the West Bank.
Your numbers are going to be disputed without some sensible back up.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 21/10/2023 14:47

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 12:27

Read original that I first mentioned him in. I said he was a known antisemitic because of all the terrible stuff he had said about Jews. That him stating what he did made it more popular to say etc. I didn't discuss if true or not as a statement about Israel or say Tutu was antisemitic to say this. I will say he was just a well known jew hater who also did a lot of good in Africa. He obviously wasn't all bad but wasn't all good either.

If you want to know the type of Jew hate that came out of his mouth Google Tutu antisemitism or go read my examples about it.

I googled "tutu jew" because having googled some of your other facts, I'm trying to avoid the extremism that would be returned by "tutu antisemitism"

Apparently some Jews consider him a prophet, this I had no idea about. Thank you.
https://contendingmodernities.nd.edu/global-currents/jewish-perspective-tutu-dream/

Who knew that Jewish people were as diverse a bunch as any other? We all did.

Throwhandsupintheair · 21/10/2023 14:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 14:58

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 21/10/2023 14:42

Can we have references for this number of nazis?

The other day you were unable to google the population of the West Bank.
Your numbers are going to be disputed without some sensible back up.

Good point about me not bothering to Google and just asking in some could check because I could remember of hand the numbers in the west bank. Obviously I could have do that myself.

In a previous post I have already said the numbers of Palestinian nazi ideology supporters that I have are somewhere in old laptop or phone files and I will look. This I will post if and when I find. Will probably stubble across whilst looking for something else. Either way as Hamas clearly show nazi likings and similar tactics regarding Jews I think we can all say with much confidence that Hamas are antisemitic. That they believe in nazi ideology apart from that few tree huggers.

nc14 · 21/10/2023 15:00

@Trulywonderful Some of these posts are so long I don’t reference them because the whole post will be reposted.

30,000 out of 4.9 million is less than 1% of the population of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The % is even less if you count Palestinians abroad. It’s not a ‘large number of Palestinians’ even if it were true. It is, as I said, just emotive propaganda

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 15:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Or everyone is just racist from birth and they can prove different

Which is actually the opposite of the truth isn't it. Babies and small children have no prejudice. You see that in toddler groups and nursery. They don't do politics or bias. Then adults or older kids often come along and spoil that.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 15:14

nc14 · 21/10/2023 15:00

@Trulywonderful Some of these posts are so long I don’t reference them because the whole post will be reposted.

30,000 out of 4.9 million is less than 1% of the population of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The % is even less if you count Palestinians abroad. It’s not a ‘large number of Palestinians’ even if it were true. It is, as I said, just emotive propaganda

Just do what you have done here then next time . That seems fine and people will know your intention for the post etc

I said a large number. I didn't talk about a large percentage. 30k plus minus a few tree hugging members of Hamas is still a large number. Especially as said before we can hardly count the children etc

If 30k plus minus a few tree huggers is not a large number to you then fair enough. To myself that is a large number. Anyway we will agree to disagree on this. What is one way to you is a different way to me and all that.

etmoietmoietmoi · 21/10/2023 15:22

@Trulywonderful

I feel like the BLM movement helped a lot of people understand that though they never thought of themselves as racist. They did in fact use racist stereotypes or behaved in a racist way on occasion. They did this unconsciously for the most part. However that doesn't stop it being wrong or harmful to others. I think antisemitism is similar for a lot of people.

Yes I agree with this. And the other parallel with BLM is when "All Lives Matter" is directed very passive aggressively to the Black community, but if it's antisemitism and the Jewish community it translates as "and all kinds of racism", which Corbyn popularised. Like it's completely impossible for him to call out an incident of antisemitism as a stand-alone, specific kind of racism. The suffix "and all kinds of racism" is no less passive aggressive than "all lives matter".

I am sure once in a while someone is called out on antisemitism unfairly. This will happen for a variety of reasons. Mostly it seems to be good hearted people that unfortunately don't understand the definition in the first post. However most people do understand it. Therefore a lot of the complaints about false antisemitism seem to be the trope that Jews complain to much or cry antisemitism. This it self is antisemitic

Yes, this trope has existed for years but is a lot worse now . In fact, I see as many, if not more, accusations of antisemitism coming from non-Jews whether it exists or not. Jewish people generally just want to get on with their lives quietly and not draw attention to themselves. We don't complain because we're so aware of this trope. For the most part, when I've heard antisemitic comments throughout my life I've just kept my mouth shut because my default position is 'keep your head down and don't whinge'. But I know it's wrong not to call it out.

nc14 · 21/10/2023 15:25

@Trulywonderful It’s not ‘a large number of Palestinians’ though is it. What counts as a large number is relative.

I can see it is estimated that a similar proportion of the UK are autistic (<1%), but it wouldn’t be fair to state ‘a large number of British people are autistic’. It would be misleading.

Irrespective, you’ve still provided no evidence for the 30,000 figure, but I can see Hamas numbers are estimated to be between 20,000-30,000, so I’m guessing you’ve just assumed all Hamas members, and their close relatives, are Nazis.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 15:38

etmoietmoietmoi

So true what you say about Jez. He always has a 'but' when it comes to talking about Jews. Else it is a 'and all other religions or ethnic groups'. I do wonder if he actually knows his own prejudice though. Most the time I don't think he realises. However as his fan club online often express Jew hate and some of the people he calls his 'friends' support Jew hating regimes, I am properly giving him to much slack there.

Yes most Jewish families I know blend in rather that being loud and noticeable. It does seem largely the case that most Jews just ignore antisemitism rather than confronting it. Not only would it be knackering to always call everything out when it is so ingrained in western culture. It is safer job wise, sometimes school wise and socially to not challenge. That is a very sad.

cakeorwine · 21/10/2023 15:43

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 15:14

Just do what you have done here then next time . That seems fine and people will know your intention for the post etc

I said a large number. I didn't talk about a large percentage. 30k plus minus a few tree hugging members of Hamas is still a large number. Especially as said before we can hardly count the children etc

If 30k plus minus a few tree huggers is not a large number to you then fair enough. To myself that is a large number. Anyway we will agree to disagree on this. What is one way to you is a different way to me and all that.

You didn't even compare the Palestinians to Nazis. You said that " It is because a large number of Palestinians are still nazis

I think that post got deleted.

A large number? When people say " a large number", normally they are saying that as a percentage of the population being talked about.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 15:56

nc14 · 21/10/2023 15:25

@Trulywonderful It’s not ‘a large number of Palestinians’ though is it. What counts as a large number is relative.

I can see it is estimated that a similar proportion of the UK are autistic (<1%), but it wouldn’t be fair to state ‘a large number of British people are autistic’. It would be misleading.

Irrespective, you’ve still provided no evidence for the 30,000 figure, but I can see Hamas numbers are estimated to be between 20,000-30,000, so I’m guessing you’ve just assumed all Hamas members, and their close relatives, are Nazis.

As someone that works in a school that is a large number because a lot of those will be autistic children. From the view point of the government proving support via NHS or whatever that is a large number too.

What seems like a small number to you is relative depending on the situation. For example I don't know what religion or country you are from. However first image whatever group seems to have a disliking for what you are and can't change. Most groups have some other group like this. Now imagine that these pare pure evil. That they believe killing yourself, your children everyone in your group would make the world a better place. Now imagine there are 30k plus minus a few tree huggers of these people. That is why to me 30k is a large number.

Hamas leaders have always been very honest about what they want to do to Jews. They changed their charter document a bit to convince people to give them more money. However their leaders are still saying kill Jews. They try to just say Israelis. However this slips once in a while. So to me 30k plus that wants to kill my family is a large number.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 16:00

cakeorwine · 21/10/2023 15:43

You didn't even compare the Palestinians to Nazis. You said that " It is because a large number of Palestinians are still nazis

I think that post got deleted.

A large number? When people say " a large number", normally they are saying that as a percentage of the population being talked about.

Edited

Yes that seems to be were people have misunderstood me. To me a large number is just that. If I wanted to say percentage I would have done just that. I did explain what I meant repeatedly though. I can't do more than that really.

cakeorwine · 21/10/2023 16:02

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 16:00

Yes that seems to be were people have misunderstood me. To me a large number is just that. If I wanted to say percentage I would have done just that. I did explain what I meant repeatedly though. I can't do more than that really.

Of course they have.....

So would you care to give a percentage?
An estimate?

cakeorwine · 21/10/2023 16:04

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 16:00

Yes that seems to be were people have misunderstood me. To me a large number is just that. If I wanted to say percentage I would have done just that. I did explain what I meant repeatedly though. I can't do more than that really.

By your thinking, a large number of British people are gay.
A large number of British people are trans.

nc14 · 21/10/2023 16:07

@Trulywonderful It might be a large number but it’s not a large number of British people.

It takes a lot more than hating Jews to be a Nazi. Its a simplification used for affect. As I said, it’s propaganda. You clearly have no evidence to support your theory either.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 16:11

cakeorwine · 21/10/2023 16:02

Of course they have.....

So would you care to give a percentage?
An estimate?

Why would I do that if I haven't been talking about percentages? That would make no sense.

cakeorwine · 21/10/2023 16:12

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 16:11

Why would I do that if I haven't been talking about percentages? That would make no sense.

Why would you say that "A large number of Palestinians are Nazis?"

Why indeed...

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 16:21

nc14 · 21/10/2023 16:07

@Trulywonderful It might be a large number but it’s not a large number of British people.

It takes a lot more than hating Jews to be a Nazi. Its a simplification used for affect. As I said, it’s propaganda. You clearly have no evidence to support your theory either.

We spoke about this before. How Hitler had deliberately courted the Arab world. I provided evidence. Which has had a knock on affect for some time with Jew hating individuals. Also the fact that some parts of extremist Islamic ideology not that different from nazi ideology. They mirror each other when it comes to Jews. The antisemitism is there the same propaganda but expanded upon. If hams insist on waving nazi flags or painting swastikas on buildings, if there leaders talk about killing Jews and they are willing to massacre children and adults on mass like they have Hamas are nazis. Oh and a tad bit antisemitic too.

nc14 · 21/10/2023 16:28

@Trulywonderful I suspect a lot of Palestinians don’t like Israelis because they’ve been occupied and persecuted by them for the last few decades, rather than because Hitler courted them over 75 years ago. That doesn’t make them Nazis. There is a lot more to being a Nazi than hating Jews. A cross over in some views does not make it the same.

Perhaps you should start a thread and see if people agree with you that hating Jews (or the Jews persecuting Palestinians to be specific) makes someone a Nazi.

nc14 · 21/10/2023 16:30

”some parts of extremist Islamic ideology not that different from nazi ideology.”

You’ve even said yourself it’s not the same thing whilst thinking the same label should be applied.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 16:51

nc14 · 21/10/2023 16:28

@Trulywonderful I suspect a lot of Palestinians don’t like Israelis because they’ve been occupied and persecuted by them for the last few decades, rather than because Hitler courted them over 75 years ago. That doesn’t make them Nazis. There is a lot more to being a Nazi than hating Jews. A cross over in some views does not make it the same.

Perhaps you should start a thread and see if people agree with you that hating Jews (or the Jews persecuting Palestinians to be specific) makes someone a Nazi.

You seem to be convinced that Hamas are the good guys or something. It is obvious from your posts you don't want anyone suggesting they have evil intentions and believe some twisted stuff about Jews. I keep saying Jews but you keep insist it is about just Israel or something. The Hamas leaders and ex leaders disagree with you. If you don't believe me then believe them. You seem to be their fan or something. I have no idea what on earth is going on with you. It is mind boggling. I have been nice and replying to your questions on two different occasions when you have treated to derail the thread or talk about the conflict. The thread been very interesting in places and questions have been answered. I shall exit after wanting to watching out for it over Shabbat in case anyone genuine posted.

etmoietmoietmoi · 21/10/2023 17:00

Here's a fine example of the kind of antisemitism British Jews have had to deal with increasingly over the last 5 years, except, as is stated, it's about to get a whole lot worse for us. Relentlessly we're held to account for Israel's actions (see Point 6 of OP's post), regardless of whether we have a politician father or media platform.

https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1715746080468685080

https://twitter.com/TweeterReynolds/status/1715746633818775659

I've been following Hugo on Twitter for years and listen to his radio show, and not once have I seen or heard him "siding with a brutal apartheid regime".

https://twitter.com/iiaixii6/status/1715753386107134002

Simply for existing as ethnically Jewish, we've apparently "wedded our identity to a pathological murderous state".

https://twitter.com/theasefountain/status/1715752075747827998

I don't think these people will be happy unless we're all rounded up and forced to give a televised broadcast denouncing Israel while self-flagellating.

https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1715746080468685080

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