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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
EdithStourton · 21/10/2023 10:28

@LimePi Israel pulled out of the whole of the Gaza strip in 2005. They also handed the Sinai back to Egypt some time before that. They ended up with a larger territory in 1948 than that allotted by the UN was because the nascent state had to fight a war of self-defence.

Given that handing Gaza back has resulted in a pogrom, I doubt Israel is likely to hand the West Bank back anytime soon.

It's quite possible that Hamas has nixxed any chance of a Palestinian state for the foreseeable future. And that is a massive tragedy.

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 21/10/2023 10:33

LimePi · 21/10/2023 02:01

And yes, UNTIL THEN (and I’m sure this will not happen) Israel is not comparable with Nazi Germany. However it can’t be part of the definition that it cannot ever be comparable, that’s what I mean

If the OP had posted the IHRA definition plus illustrations and guidance including the words:
‘taking into account the overall context’
then I don’t think this would be an issue.

MadderthanMorris · 21/10/2023 10:42

How is apartheid even up for discussion? Israel IS opposing apartheid, in the full sense of the word, on the Palestinians. Amnesty International have recognised it and described it as such.

EasternStandard · 21/10/2023 10:48

MadderthanMorris · 21/10/2023 10:42

How is apartheid even up for discussion? Israel IS opposing apartheid, in the full sense of the word, on the Palestinians. Amnesty International have recognised it and described it as such.

How would you resolve it?

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 21/10/2023 10:48

If someone doing research in the 2020's can confuse Hendrik Verwoerd and Desmond Tutu, we've come a long way.

If you want to know why Desmond Tutu made his comments, it had to do with a siege of Gaza, check points and restriction of water, electricity and fuel.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/south-africa-desmond-tutu-dies-what-he-said-israel-palestine

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 10:58

MadderthanMorris · 21/10/2023 10:42

How is apartheid even up for discussion? Israel IS opposing apartheid, in the full sense of the word, on the Palestinians. Amnesty International have recognised it and described it as such.

It is up for discussion because someone wanted to derail the thread. I have referenced antisemitism related history of it getting used. However personally I won't be drawn into a debate about it on a thread about antisemitism to Jews all around the world. The poster could always start their own thread about this topic or Israel.

The word isn't antisemitism on its own if said about the state of Israel whether people believe it is true or not, unlike other words. It only becomes antisemitism if someone says something like "Jews like apartheid". Other than the only issue is that a famous antisemitic made it become a popular thing to say amongst certain groups of people.

It is an interesting statement/word to use and there are a lot of points people tend not to know about surrounding the claim.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 11:01

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 21/10/2023 10:48

If someone doing research in the 2020's can confuse Hendrik Verwoerd and Desmond Tutu, we've come a long way.

If you want to know why Desmond Tutu made his comments, it had to do with a siege of Gaza, check points and restriction of water, electricity and fuel.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/south-africa-desmond-tutu-dies-what-he-said-israel-palestine

It wasn't a discussion about the validity of the claim. It was a point that a know Jew hater made it. Again a good conversation to be had about validity. However this is a thread about antisemitism. So I have been talking about that and not derailing it about Israel/Palestinian issues.

LimePi · 21/10/2023 11:11

@EdithStourton

Israel CLAIMS that 6 day war was in self defense;)
so does Putin about war in Ukraine btw (and Crimea annexation in 2014).

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 21/10/2023 11:16

@Trulywonderful To call Desmond Tutu anti-Semitic because he attacks aspects of Israeli policy is as ludicrous as calling people who attacked the apartheid government of South Africa racist.

As a previous PP noted, this thread should have walked it.
How much influence has you research and interesting facts had on the poll?
Did you truly mean to undermine Lemony?
Lemony would have lost some votes for being a bit emotive, but now is an entirely fine time to be a bit emotive.

LimePi · 21/10/2023 11:17

@Trulywonderful

the problem is that when people say things criticising specific policies of Israeli government (which are not antisemitism according to your own definition) they are still branded anti-semitic just for this view. Or that they deny right of Israel to exist etc.

to any rational person it is very clear that statement “Israel state is perpetuating apartheid policies” is not anti semitism. Or other statements about illegal occupation of post-67 acquired lands. But people are still being shut down for this opinion.

LimePi · 21/10/2023 11:22

@Trulywonderful

‘the only issue is that a famous antisemitic made it become a popular thing to say amongst certain groups of people’

we’ve already established that several reputable international organisations found that this is true. It’s not just a “popular thing to say amongst certain groups of people”
you are of course dismissive, but Israel is being criticised for its policies towards arabs inside Israel not because of anti semitism, but because of policies themselves

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 12:10

LimePi · 21/10/2023 11:17

@Trulywonderful

the problem is that when people say things criticising specific policies of Israeli government (which are not antisemitism according to your own definition) they are still branded anti-semitic just for this view. Or that they deny right of Israel to exist etc.

to any rational person it is very clear that statement “Israel state is perpetuating apartheid policies” is not anti semitism. Or other statements about illegal occupation of post-67 acquired lands. But people are still being shut down for this opinion.

I believe there is a strong difference between saying something derogatory about Israel as a State rather than saying its government policy or its leader has do xyz. Basically treat Israel as you would any other country/state. I call out Macron on his politics not France or French people. Obviously I would always avoid stereotypes etc about France when talking about the French or Macron. The same way I would with any of topic. I don't call all Gazens terrorists for example I have seen it done but find that appauling, plenty of innocent people live there too.

For example Gaza is not a terrorist state ( yes I know they have not declared a state). Gaza is a state currently run by the terrorists Hamas.

So basically am saying like you it depends on how things are said and context. Each needs to be judged on its own. If you fling at me Israel has no right to exist and basically only that statement then it is iffy, especially if people add Jewish slurs to it. If you say this in the context of a political argument and are not making any antisemitic remarks with it then is fine. As in you think Israel doesn't have the write to exist because xyz.

I feel like the BLM movement helped a lot of people understand that though they never thought of themselves as racist. They did in fact use racist stereotypes or behaved in a racist way on occasion. They did this unconsciously for the most part. However that doesn't stop it being wrong or harmful to others. I think antisemitism is similar for a lot of people.

I am sure once in a while someone is called out on antisemitism unfairly. This will happen for a variety of reasons. Mostly it seems to be good hearted people that unfortunately don't understand the definition in the first post. However most people do understand it. Therefore a lot of the complaints about false antisemitism seem to be the trope that Jews complain to much or cry antisemitism. This it self is antisemitic.

Sugaristheenemy · 21/10/2023 12:23

To call Desmond Tutu anti-Semitic because he attacks aspects of Israeli policy is as ludicrous as calling people who attacked the apartheid government of South Africa racist.

Tutu was probably identifying with the Palestinians as the underdogs, equating their situation with the plight of black people under apartheid.
That doesn’t make him right, or immune to criticism, I know but I’m not sure if antisemitism was the root cause of his views. He was probably projecting his own experiences of South Africa.

nc14 · 21/10/2023 12:26

Israel did not return Gaza to the Palestinians in 2005. Gaza has remained under Israeli control as Israel controls Gaza’s airspace, borders, electricity and water (including limiting their fishing rights so access to food). That is why Gaza is often referred to as an ‘open air prison’.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 12:27

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 21/10/2023 11:16

@Trulywonderful To call Desmond Tutu anti-Semitic because he attacks aspects of Israeli policy is as ludicrous as calling people who attacked the apartheid government of South Africa racist.

As a previous PP noted, this thread should have walked it.
How much influence has you research and interesting facts had on the poll?
Did you truly mean to undermine Lemony?
Lemony would have lost some votes for being a bit emotive, but now is an entirely fine time to be a bit emotive.

Read original that I first mentioned him in. I said he was a known antisemitic because of all the terrible stuff he had said about Jews. That him stating what he did made it more popular to say etc. I didn't discuss if true or not as a statement about Israel or say Tutu was antisemitic to say this. I will say he was just a well known jew hater who also did a lot of good in Africa. He obviously wasn't all bad but wasn't all good either.

If you want to know the type of Jew hate that came out of his mouth Google Tutu antisemitism or go read my examples about it.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 12:39

Sugaristheenemy · 21/10/2023 12:23

To call Desmond Tutu anti-Semitic because he attacks aspects of Israeli policy is as ludicrous as calling people who attacked the apartheid government of South Africa racist.

Tutu was probably identifying with the Palestinians as the underdogs, equating their situation with the plight of black people under apartheid.
That doesn’t make him right, or immune to criticism, I know but I’m not sure if antisemitism was the root cause of his views. He was probably projecting his own experiences of South Africa.

You are possibly right there. However it is difficult to take someone's views on Israel into account that have shown Jew hate to all Jews. That is what I have been saying because it doesn't matter which organisations or people he is agreeing with. The fact he used in as a way to fan more Jew hate around the world doesn't sit well with me. That is aside from any debate about if it is true. Same goes for any other situation where a known hater is commenting on something related to the people they hate.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 21/10/2023 12:46

I thought I would google something less bias, like the words out of Tutu's mouth.
https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/statement_by_archbishop_desmond_tutu.pdf

or how the fact finding mission went, or rather didn't go until the forth attempt.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-180752/

LimePi · 21/10/2023 12:54

@Trulywonderful

is doesn’t matter one bit what Desmond Tutu said or didn’t say. your hyperfocus on him is weird. He was not the first and not the last person to use this term, and most importantly since then several international organisations stated the same

nc14 · 21/10/2023 13:01

Here’s a link to Amnesty report on Israel’s apartheid against the Palestinians. It was published last year: https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/MDE1551412022ENGLISH.pdf

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 13:25

LimePi · 21/10/2023 12:54

@Trulywonderful

is doesn’t matter one bit what Desmond Tutu said or didn’t say. your hyperfocus on him is weird. He was not the first and not the last person to use this term, and most importantly since then several international organisations stated the same

Personally I think it is very important and to take into account the previous words and actions of a person. This shows if there motivate for their involved in an issue is genuine.

Like if Kanye was posting on twitter or making interviews about the conflict. We all heard what he thinks of Jews. Therefore even if you agreed with his comments his motivation for commenting is likely to be Jew hate. That is what I think. Which is obviously different a different thought process than yourself. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism
Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 13:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

royalwatchewr · 21/10/2023 13:54

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Your amusement is frankly disgusting.

nc14 · 21/10/2023 13:58

@Trulywonderful I am responding to the several false statements made on this thread that Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005. They didn’t. These kinds of false statements unfairly perpetuate anti-Palestinian sentiment.

But then I wouldn’t expect anything more than trivialisation from someone who earlier claimed ‘a large number of Palestinians are Nazis’, so carry on.

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 13:59

royalwatchewr · 21/10/2023 13:54

Your amusement is frankly disgusting.

Read the whole thread and you will see why the timing of that post is amusing 😜

Trulywonderful · 21/10/2023 14:04

nc14 · 21/10/2023 13:58

@Trulywonderful I am responding to the several false statements made on this thread that Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005. They didn’t. These kinds of false statements unfairly perpetuate anti-Palestinian sentiment.

But then I wouldn’t expect anything more than trivialisation from someone who earlier claimed ‘a large number of Palestinians are Nazis’, so carry on.

Hamas has around 30 thousands fighter that believe nazi ideology. That often carry nazi flags etc. There are also shops in Gaza city where you can buy this stuff. I showed you one last time you tried to derail a thread about antisemitism didn't I. 30k fighters and probably somecof their families because these things are often family beliefs. I would say thatvis a large number of Palestinians that believe in nazi ideology.