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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
LemonyTicket · 20/10/2023 19:38

cakeorwine · 20/10/2023 19:21

Greta Thurnberg posed in a picture with some Jewish people holding posters about the cause of Palestine and supporting Gaza

Greta Thunberg sparks fury as she refuses to condemn Hamas in 'I stand with Gaza' post | World | News | Express.co.uk

There was a stuffed octopus in the back. She claims it was a stuffed toy that she uses as an autistic person for comfort. Some people were upset as it is seen as a canard - as discussed above - and accused her of being antiSemitic.

There are people who wouldn't associate an octopus with antiSemitism. She did crop the picture later.

In the meantime:

Arye Sharuz Shalicar, a spokesman for the Israeli army, was incensed by the climate activist's post, telling POLITICO: "Whoever identifies with Greta in any way in the future, in my view, is a terror supporter.
"Because what Greta is doing, that she is now showing solidarity with Gaza while not saying a word about the massacres of Israelis, shows that she is actually not in favour of the Palestinians, but that she is sweeping the terror of the Palestinians or Hamas and Islamic Jihad under the table as if it did not exist."
Mr Shalicar later apologised for the above remarks, saying: "I spoke out of a deep sense of pain and my words do not reflect my personal views or those of the IDF."

She has been criticised for tweeting about supporting Palestine but not for condemning Hamas.

Is she antiSemitic or can she be forgiven for not knowing about the octopus - and do some people automatically assume antiSemitism when they see symbols associated with it - such as puppets, Octopus etc when it could just be there for other reasons?

I guess that's up to everyone to decide. I've seen 5000 photos of Greta without an octopus ever appearing so the fact she's popped this into this one photo as a posed part of the image sounds like a fantastical coincidence to me.

Isn't a big deal though. Sounds like she cropped it so...shrug.

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 19:40

cakeorwine · 20/10/2023 19:21

Greta Thurnberg posed in a picture with some Jewish people holding posters about the cause of Palestine and supporting Gaza

Greta Thunberg sparks fury as she refuses to condemn Hamas in 'I stand with Gaza' post | World | News | Express.co.uk

There was a stuffed octopus in the back. She claims it was a stuffed toy that she uses as an autistic person for comfort. Some people were upset as it is seen as a canard - as discussed above - and accused her of being antiSemitic.

There are people who wouldn't associate an octopus with antiSemitism. She did crop the picture later.

In the meantime:

Arye Sharuz Shalicar, a spokesman for the Israeli army, was incensed by the climate activist's post, telling POLITICO: "Whoever identifies with Greta in any way in the future, in my view, is a terror supporter.
"Because what Greta is doing, that she is now showing solidarity with Gaza while not saying a word about the massacres of Israelis, shows that she is actually not in favour of the Palestinians, but that she is sweeping the terror of the Palestinians or Hamas and Islamic Jihad under the table as if it did not exist."
Mr Shalicar later apologised for the above remarks, saying: "I spoke out of a deep sense of pain and my words do not reflect my personal views or those of the IDF."

She has been criticised for tweeting about supporting Palestine but not for condemning Hamas.

Is she antiSemitic or can she be forgiven for not knowing about the octopus - and do some people automatically assume antiSemitism when they see symbols associated with it - such as puppets, Octopus etc when it could just be there for other reasons?

Personally I think it is there because it has a sad face.

Also someone told me last night that these things are supposed to be octopus. I thought they were aliens like the cartoon HOME. There legs are too short for an octopus.

Either way this is an autistic young lady. Here parents seriously let her down in childhood by not protecting her from childhood fame. I assume they made money off interviews back then but that is my own assumption. She needs to be given some slack as these days she is used by any group with a cause. So of course she is going to hold up a sign. If she wants to stand with Gaza or Palestinians that isn't an issue, it is her opinion.

KrisAkabusi · 20/10/2023 19:41

I have never heard of the octopus being associated with antisemitism before this thread.

Sugaristheenemy · 20/10/2023 19:42

I have no problem believing that the octopus was an accident

I honestly had no idea octopus were antisemitic imagery until now when I just googled it.

cakeorwine · 20/10/2023 19:42

I suppose my point is that some people see things like an octopus or a puppet and assume that antisemitism is at play - and accuse the person of antisemitism - when it could just be someone has used that in their cartoon / picture etc without knowing that people would assume antisemitism.

Ramalangadingdong · 20/10/2023 19:44

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 14:12

You trying to prove op right or what?

😂😂😂😂

I know I shouldn't laugh but truly some people

I thought it was deliberate, no?

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 19:46

KrisAkabusi · 20/10/2023 19:41

I have never heard of the octopus being associated with antisemitism before this thread.

The whole long tentacles rapping around a globe or whatever. The octopus representing Jews. The trope being that they control everything.

The octopus/alien in the photo barely has tentacles/legs therefore I cannot see it being used to represent that. I think it is there because of sad face. They have put it sad face up, the other way round is happy face. This is just my opinion though.

JustAMinutePleass · 20/10/2023 19:46

I think the definition of anti-Semetism is racist by default. Israel has used it to ‘other’ and shut down Palestinian and Arab Jews, Christians and Muslims who disagree with Israel’s existance.

LemonyTicket · 20/10/2023 19:56

cakeorwine · 20/10/2023 19:42

I suppose my point is that some people see things like an octopus or a puppet and assume that antisemitism is at play - and accuse the person of antisemitism - when it could just be someone has used that in their cartoon / picture etc without knowing that people would assume antisemitism.

Context though.

  1. She's sitting with a Jew, almost no chance a Jew doesn't know what it means.
  1. Photo is supporting Gaza vs Israel
  1. It's very deliberately placed

So. 😒 looks a bit odd

But no big deal really. She's young.

Im sure she wasn't intending harm

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 20/10/2023 19:59

JustAMinutePleass · 20/10/2023 19:46

I think the definition of anti-Semetism is racist by default. Israel has used it to ‘other’ and shut down Palestinian and Arab Jews, Christians and Muslims who disagree with Israel’s existance.

Do you think the definition of Islamophobia is racist too? It's the same.

A lot of people on the right wing argue it shuts down criticism of grooming gangs or terrorism.

Do you agree?

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 20:02

cakeorwine · 20/10/2023 19:42

I suppose my point is that some people see things like an octopus or a puppet and assume that antisemitism is at play - and accuse the person of antisemitism - when it could just be someone has used that in their cartoon / picture etc without knowing that people would assume antisemitism.

This happens with all racism though

That is why cases have to be judged individually and on whether the person is a repeat affender. I know I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt for first offence or enough rope to hang themselves in an oblivious way (Kanye). However some people may know more that me about an individuals past or in the case of mumsnet there previous posts.

As most antisemitism isn't people shouting the Y word and blatant stuff like that it can be a tricky issue. Sly people that have Jew hate don't say stuff like Hamas or Kanye. They use age old symbols and tropes. They compare stuff to Jews that they know will cause pain. This is done in a way only the Jew or someone that understands antisemitism will recognise. It is all rather sly as is their argument that the Jew complaining about it is a liar or trying to convince everyone Jews complain about everything

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 20:14

JustAMinutePleass · 20/10/2023 19:46

I think the definition of anti-Semetism is racist by default. Israel has used it to ‘other’ and shut down Palestinian and Arab Jews, Christians and Muslims who disagree with Israel’s existance.

Is the definition wrong to you outside your issues around how you feel Israel has used it.

I mean is it wrong regarding antisemitism in general - Do you feel it is wrong if we took Israel out of the equation?

Do you feel Jews have the right to self determine? (World Jews not including Israel)

Do you feel Jews should be able to live as Jews openly and in safety? (World Jews not including Israel)

Also the islamophobia is basicallythe same. Do you feel the same way about that?

Your argument is like saying racism isn't fair to white people. That white people should be able to say certain racist word or use old slanders against non white people.

Ramalangadingdong · 20/10/2023 20:21

I had never heard of the octopus image but just looked it up. And now I have a headache. A lot of the anti semitic images that came up are so gross.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 20/10/2023 21:05

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 20:51

I learnt something knew last night. I hadn't heard of the term "Sneaking Disregard". Turns out there is a term for what some people do online etc.

Who knew, I didn't.

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2020/07/the-sneaking-regarders-and-their-boundless-hypocrisy

Interesting article, thank you for telling us who you are.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 20/10/2023 21:13

@LemonyTicket one for you, a compare, contrast and critique of IHRA and the JDA by Antisemitism Policy Trust.

https://antisemitism.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Redefining-antisemitism-Final.pdf

EdithStourton · 20/10/2023 21:41

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 19:02

I'm not going to debate with someone about why it is wrong to commit crimes against humanity and war crimes. That should go withiut saying and isn't what this thread is about. Israel have committed the same acts as the acts that made the EU brand Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. My question was why is it antisemitic to hold Israel to the same standards.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation that runs Gaza. How is Israel going stop attacks against Israeli civilians without attacking Hamas? How can it attack Hamas without attacking Gaza?

The context of Israel's attacks on Gaza and the Russian invasion of Ukraine are completely different. Russia had no need to invade Ukraine. I don't see what option Israel has but to deal with Hamas.

To compare Israel to Russia in this scenario demonstrates a somewhat warped view of reality.

Lonelycrab · 20/10/2023 21:53

To compare Israel to Russia in this scenario demonstrates a somewhat warped view of reality

Its a pretty reasonable comparison when you think about it

Russia has overwhelming power
Russia is trying to take land that isn’t its
Russia will act with absolute inhumanity and will commit war crimes to achieve its aims.

Thats a couple of similarities I can think of, hth. Btw- genocide is how a lot of people see this- how does that help peace?

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 22:35

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 20/10/2023 21:05

Interesting article, thank you for telling us who you are.

And in that reply you tell everyone who you are

It kind of works both ways honey

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 22:50

Lonelycrab · 20/10/2023 21:53

To compare Israel to Russia in this scenario demonstrates a somewhat warped view of reality

Its a pretty reasonable comparison when you think about it

Russia has overwhelming power
Russia is trying to take land that isn’t its
Russia will act with absolute inhumanity and will commit war crimes to achieve its aims.

Thats a couple of similarities I can think of, hth. Btw- genocide is how a lot of people see this- how does that help peace?

Edited

Israel like Ukraine is a democracy

Russian and Hamas are not

Hamas was made as a genocidal endeavour.There leaders still give speeches stating this. Russia wants to wipe out an Ukrainian that doesn't want to be Russian.

Putin shakes hands with North Kora and Iran who both supply weapons to Hamas to Hamas.

It is really off to compare the Russia and Israel as you have done. The Ukrainians definitely don't agree with you and history or the conflict doesn't either

To share the actual definition of antisemitism
Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 22:55

Sorry is post was not about antisemitism but it is annoying anyone bringing poor Ukraine into this.

I fear people are forgetting the Ukrainians still under threat at the moment. Well don't need people using their issue to make a false point about what is going on in the middle east.

Anyway I won't respond on this thread to anything Russia Ukraine related again. Don't want to derail thread.

Ramalangadingdong · 20/10/2023 23:05

I don’t think Greta Thunberg is expressing anti semitism with that little cuddly octopus. I think it would have to be propped on top of a globe for it to lean into that trope.

Lonelycrab · 20/10/2023 23:07

@LemonyTicket @Trulywonderful
pretty lame, soggy argument really.

I’ll leave you alone now, to perhaps contemplate why a perfectly reasonable aibu that should walk it…should only get 50 %

Pethaps there’s too much personal agenda in there, rather than the the basic, very valid questions on the op? Idk. Just my 2p.

Ramalangadingdong · 20/10/2023 23:15

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 19:46

The whole long tentacles rapping around a globe or whatever. The octopus representing Jews. The trope being that they control everything.

The octopus/alien in the photo barely has tentacles/legs therefore I cannot see it being used to represent that. I think it is there because of sad face. They have put it sad face up, the other way round is happy face. This is just my opinion though.

I agree with you. I hadn’t read your post before I posted something similar if less eloquent.

An image of an octopus cannot be antisemitic in itself. It is the way the image is manipulated to represent myths about Jewishness. If we don’t acknowledge this people can cry antisemitism about anything. And I am aware that even saying that could be seen as antisemitic.

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 23:32

Ramalangadingdong · 20/10/2023 23:15

I agree with you. I hadn’t read your post before I posted something similar if less eloquent.

An image of an octopus cannot be antisemitic in itself. It is the way the image is manipulated to represent myths about Jewishness. If we don’t acknowledge this people can cry antisemitism about anything. And I am aware that even saying that could be seen as antisemitic.

Well yes you could have phrased that better at the end. I sure you know why etc

Who knows tomorrow Greta could post something else that is more obviously deliberate antisemitism and we are both wrong. Time will tell I suppose.

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