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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
LemonyTicket · 20/10/2023 12:46

Ramalangadingdong · 20/10/2023 12:31

I get where you are coming from, but where is the list that explains what Islamaphobia is and tells you that if you do any of those things you are an Islamaphobe and will be banished from the Labour Party etc?

So you don't object to the lists- which are almost identical- just to someone explaining what they mean? 🤔

This isn't about the Labour party, it is about understanding what antisemitism is.

OP posts:
roarrfeckingroar · 20/10/2023 12:47

YANBU for posting.

I can't go on Twitter at the moment due to the antisemitism, it's sickening. The number one trend in my area is #IsraelTerrorist

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 12:59

LemonyTicket

Seems to be about winding you up now or proving you cannot be trusted as a poster. At this stage.

Think it is because of your own fault for providing very information posts on other threads. These have been difficult for posters to dispute in a sensible way for many.

It is a shame because this thread has had some good debates and questions asked.

LemonyTicket · 20/10/2023 13:21

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 12:59

LemonyTicket

Seems to be about winding you up now or proving you cannot be trusted as a poster. At this stage.

Think it is because of your own fault for providing very information posts on other threads. These have been difficult for posters to dispute in a sensible way for many.

It is a shame because this thread has had some good debates and questions asked.

Of course it is :) Some people are here only to goad. But I think that might be helpful in a way as it shows other users a good example of the attitude Jews encounter in Britain.

There are a lot of spaces - academia, left wing politics and certain social groups where Jews (left wing Jews) are made extremely uncomfortable by ongoing undertones of antisemitism.

If they raise it, they are usually met with rage, aggression, denial, and counter accusations that they can't be trusted or have an agenda of some kind.

I think that some people have done a good job pf exposing this.

OP posts:
ChalkWitch · 20/10/2023 13:49

Absolutely this. This thread I think has demonstrated that quite clearly.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 13:58

roarrfeckingroar · 20/10/2023 12:47

YANBU for posting.

I can't go on Twitter at the moment due to the antisemitism, it's sickening. The number one trend in my area is #IsraelTerrorist

Is it the stuff under the # that is the problem rather than the # itself? If it is the # itself how should it phrased to not be antisemitic in your eyes? #IDFterrorist?

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 14:12

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 13:58

Is it the stuff under the # that is the problem rather than the # itself? If it is the # itself how should it phrased to not be antisemitic in your eyes? #IDFterrorist?

You trying to prove op right or what?

😂😂😂😂

I know I shouldn't laugh but truly some people

Sugaristheenemy · 20/10/2023 14:38

Think it is because of your own fault for providing very information posts on other threads. These have been difficult for posters to dispute in a sensible way for many.

I wouldn’t go that far. Lemony is well informed and (as far as I can tell) genuine but she is not the font of all knowledge. No-one is.
People are not goading you just by disagreeing you know.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 14:42

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 14:12

You trying to prove op right or what?

😂😂😂😂

I know I shouldn't laugh but truly some people

No it was a genuine question. How do you call a spade a spade without it being offensive to Jewish people? Surely, that poster doesn't expect people not to call it out. What the IDF are doing is the very definition of a terrorism?

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 14:56

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 14:42

No it was a genuine question. How do you call a spade a spade without it being offensive to Jewish people? Surely, that poster doesn't expect people not to call it out. What the IDF are doing is the very definition of a terrorism?

Just to add when Russia did what Israel are doing the EU called it out as terrorism. I genuinely can't see why it is antisemitic to call out another country in the same way, why one should be held to different standards because of religion.

The EU on Russia The deliberate attacks and atrocities carried out by the Russian Federation against the civilian population of Ukraine, the destruction of civilian infrastructure and other serious violations of human rights and international humanitarian law amount to acts of terror against the Ukrainian population and constitute war crimes

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 20/10/2023 17:38

You can pull rank and make ad hominem attacks as much as you like.
The point is you posted one definition and explained it by paraphrasing the explanation of a much narrower definition. If you’re trying to tell us all ‘the actual definition of antisemitism’ then that wasn’t a good start.

EdithStourton · 20/10/2023 18:41

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 14:56

Just to add when Russia did what Israel are doing the EU called it out as terrorism. I genuinely can't see why it is antisemitic to call out another country in the same way, why one should be held to different standards because of religion.

The EU on Russia The deliberate attacks and atrocities carried out by the Russian Federation against the civilian population of Ukraine, the destruction of civilian infrastructure and other serious violations of human rights and international humanitarian law amount to acts of terror against the Ukrainian population and constitute war crimes

The significant difference is that Russia attacked Ukraine first. Israel is going after Hamas after over a thousand Israelis were killed in cold blood by Hamas terrorists on Israeli soil. Try as I might, I don't recall any armed Ukrainian groups going over the Russian border and slaughtering a comparable number of Russian men, women and children.

Can you suggest how the IDF could deal with Hamas without causing agony for the people of Gaza? Hamas is willing to use its own people as human shields.

I'm still reeling from the way so many news outlets and individuals were willing to believe the PR arm of a terrorist organisation with the stated aim of wiping Jews and the Jewish state off the face of the earth the moment it accused that Jewish state of bombing a hospital. They might want to check their facts next time.

honeyytoast · 20/10/2023 18:46

“Grossly exaggerating Israel’s actual influence” seems to be very subjective though, as a lot of people apparently disagree re the facts of what Israel has and hasn’t done

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 19:01

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 14:42

No it was a genuine question. How do you call a spade a spade without it being offensive to Jewish people? Surely, that poster doesn't expect people not to call it out. What the IDF are doing is the very definition of a terrorism?

The original poster did not state she was looking at on twitter. Only that this # was all over here area/feed.

Unless the person that replied has the ability to see what type of stuff the poster is referring too yes there replied is wrongful and iffy. The poster could easily be saying everything Jewish related on there feed has this #. It is wrong to # everything Jewish! Very unpleasant if that is the case.

Why do that reply without even asking first what types of thread or posts have this #. Such a total junk move by that person and typically what Jewish people have to put up with.

It is good people can see this stuff played out here. Good for people to see and watch out for this behaviour. Maybe a learning opportunity for some to not make assumptions based on their own prejudice or bias.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 19:02

EdithStourton · 20/10/2023 18:41

The significant difference is that Russia attacked Ukraine first. Israel is going after Hamas after over a thousand Israelis were killed in cold blood by Hamas terrorists on Israeli soil. Try as I might, I don't recall any armed Ukrainian groups going over the Russian border and slaughtering a comparable number of Russian men, women and children.

Can you suggest how the IDF could deal with Hamas without causing agony for the people of Gaza? Hamas is willing to use its own people as human shields.

I'm still reeling from the way so many news outlets and individuals were willing to believe the PR arm of a terrorist organisation with the stated aim of wiping Jews and the Jewish state off the face of the earth the moment it accused that Jewish state of bombing a hospital. They might want to check their facts next time.

I'm not going to debate with someone about why it is wrong to commit crimes against humanity and war crimes. That should go withiut saying and isn't what this thread is about. Israel have committed the same acts as the acts that made the EU brand Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. My question was why is it antisemitic to hold Israel to the same standards.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 19:04

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 19:01

The original poster did not state she was looking at on twitter. Only that this # was all over here area/feed.

Unless the person that replied has the ability to see what type of stuff the poster is referring too yes there replied is wrongful and iffy. The poster could easily be saying everything Jewish related on there feed has this #. It is wrong to # everything Jewish! Very unpleasant if that is the case.

Why do that reply without even asking first what types of thread or posts have this #. Such a total junk move by that person and typically what Jewish people have to put up with.

It is good people can see this stuff played out here. Good for people to see and watch out for this behaviour. Maybe a learning opportunity for some to not make assumptions based on their own prejudice or bias.

I did ask. Why write a long post full of shite without reading first?

I'll take it from your post though that is absolutely fine to call Israel terrorists though, so thanks for clearing it up. It was a really straight forward question.

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 19:15

Sugaristheenemy · 20/10/2023 14:38

Think it is because of your own fault for providing very information posts on other threads. These have been difficult for posters to dispute in a sensible way for many.

I wouldn’t go that far. Lemony is well informed and (as far as I can tell) genuine but she is not the font of all knowledge. No-one is.
People are not goading you just by disagreeing you know.

Not saying op is all knowing in this area. What I am saying in other threads they are knowledgeable about the conflict and the history of it. They make clear arguments that people get and are very good at answering questions people have. I mean you can see that in this thread, they have be very good with some interesting interactions.

I appreciate that and am sure others do too. However it is obvious to most people that this thread has been used in places to try and discredit op. This hasn't always just been people disagreeing with the definition of antisemitism op provided. However I don't expect everyone to feel the same way as I do about this. We all have a different way to view what we are reading

cakeorwine · 20/10/2023 19:21

Greta Thurnberg posed in a picture with some Jewish people holding posters about the cause of Palestine and supporting Gaza

Greta Thunberg sparks fury as she refuses to condemn Hamas in 'I stand with Gaza' post | World | News | Express.co.uk

There was a stuffed octopus in the back. She claims it was a stuffed toy that she uses as an autistic person for comfort. Some people were upset as it is seen as a canard - as discussed above - and accused her of being antiSemitic.

There are people who wouldn't associate an octopus with antiSemitism. She did crop the picture later.

In the meantime:

Arye Sharuz Shalicar, a spokesman for the Israeli army, was incensed by the climate activist's post, telling POLITICO: "Whoever identifies with Greta in any way in the future, in my view, is a terror supporter.
"Because what Greta is doing, that she is now showing solidarity with Gaza while not saying a word about the massacres of Israelis, shows that she is actually not in favour of the Palestinians, but that she is sweeping the terror of the Palestinians or Hamas and Islamic Jihad under the table as if it did not exist."
Mr Shalicar later apologised for the above remarks, saying: "I spoke out of a deep sense of pain and my words do not reflect my personal views or those of the IDF."

She has been criticised for tweeting about supporting Palestine but not for condemning Hamas.

Is she antiSemitic or can she be forgiven for not knowing about the octopus - and do some people automatically assume antiSemitism when they see symbols associated with it - such as puppets, Octopus etc when it could just be there for other reasons?

Greta Thunberg sparks fury as she refuses to condemn Hamas in Gaza post

Greta Thunberg deleted a social media post showing solidarity with Gaza after the climate activist was accused of displaying an antisemitic symbol.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1826269/Greta-Thunberg-Gaza-Israel-Hamas-Palestine

EasternStandard · 20/10/2023 19:28

cakeorwine · 20/10/2023 19:21

Greta Thurnberg posed in a picture with some Jewish people holding posters about the cause of Palestine and supporting Gaza

Greta Thunberg sparks fury as she refuses to condemn Hamas in 'I stand with Gaza' post | World | News | Express.co.uk

There was a stuffed octopus in the back. She claims it was a stuffed toy that she uses as an autistic person for comfort. Some people were upset as it is seen as a canard - as discussed above - and accused her of being antiSemitic.

There are people who wouldn't associate an octopus with antiSemitism. She did crop the picture later.

In the meantime:

Arye Sharuz Shalicar, a spokesman for the Israeli army, was incensed by the climate activist's post, telling POLITICO: "Whoever identifies with Greta in any way in the future, in my view, is a terror supporter.
"Because what Greta is doing, that she is now showing solidarity with Gaza while not saying a word about the massacres of Israelis, shows that she is actually not in favour of the Palestinians, but that she is sweeping the terror of the Palestinians or Hamas and Islamic Jihad under the table as if it did not exist."
Mr Shalicar later apologised for the above remarks, saying: "I spoke out of a deep sense of pain and my words do not reflect my personal views or those of the IDF."

She has been criticised for tweeting about supporting Palestine but not for condemning Hamas.

Is she antiSemitic or can she be forgiven for not knowing about the octopus - and do some people automatically assume antiSemitism when they see symbols associated with it - such as puppets, Octopus etc when it could just be there for other reasons?

I just googled this and some ugly, but mainstream stuff came up (press and history)

I don’t know what GT knew or why it was placed as it was

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 19:29

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 19:04

I did ask. Why write a long post full of shite without reading first?

I'll take it from your post though that is absolutely fine to call Israel terrorists though, so thanks for clearing it up. It was a really straight forward question.

Edited

Did you really, no because you questions are worded in a very accusing way. Which is not the same as asking a genuinely really innocent question.

You only replied to say that too poster and now to myself.

You have proven my point because you haven't ask my opinion on this #. So I didn't give it. The issue for all to see is whether # should be added or thrown at anything or anyone Jewish.

The definition op posted explaining this I believe. Maybe read it and educate yourself.

LemonyTicket · 20/10/2023 19:30

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 14:42

No it was a genuine question. How do you call a spade a spade without it being offensive to Jewish people? Surely, that poster doesn't expect people not to call it out. What the IDF are doing is the very definition of a terrorism?

Calling it terrorism isn't antisemitic. Its not on the list 😕 😒 😔

OP posts:
AgingDisgracefullyHere · 20/10/2023 19:31

I have no problem believing that the octopus was an accident. But I can see why it looks bad. It looks like it's been deliberately placed there.

LemonyTicket · 20/10/2023 19:33

honeyytoast · 20/10/2023 18:46

“Grossly exaggerating Israel’s actual influence” seems to be very subjective though, as a lot of people apparently disagree re the facts of what Israel has and hasn’t done

Edited

You just make evidence based criticism, based on demonstrable facts- rather than wild, nonsensical statements like "the Israel Lobby have control of the global press".

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 20/10/2023 19:37

AgingDisgracefullyHere · 20/10/2023 19:31

I have no problem believing that the octopus was an accident. But I can see why it looks bad. It looks like it's been deliberately placed there.

It’s on show for whatever reason

Really bad if it was for a kind of antisemitic prop

But no one will know for sure, other than those in the shot

Sugaristheenemy · 20/10/2023 19:38

However it is obvious to most people that this thread has been used in places to try and discredit op

Why would they need to discredit her though?

Also I know this was probably posted in AIBU for traffic but AIBU posts attract argument/judgement. I mean there’s even a poll.