Page 7 | Private school vs private anything educational

stopitstopitnooow · 2023-10-17T19:38:21+00:00

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with: Buying houses in expensive catchment areas Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE (Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians) I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

Mooshamoo · 17/10/2023 22:32

Private schools make a lot of inequality.

Bloodsweatntears · 17/10/2023 22:34

Alo3Vera · 17/10/2023 22:18

Bloodsweatntears

it’s not just tiny classes and resources but connections too. You’re asking the impossible. Most schools are doing an excellent job. Aside from the connections the type of education and provision the top tiny percentage of the wealthiest get that gives the advantage just isn’t possible to give to the majority.

Ahhh, these mythical “connections”.

So hard to quantify but so appealing to beat private school children with.

Possibly they exist for old Etonians (although the only OE I know had a hard time finding a training contract at a law firm, despite a good degree, because of his school).

But do you really believe that a small independent day school has 100s of alumni in strategic positions across a variety of sectors all gleefully waiting to usher in fellow old pupils? Really?

JustAMinutePleass · 17/10/2023 22:36

gotomomo · 17/10/2023 22:30

By the way I don't thing they should be banned, it's just their shouldn't be tax breaks, it's a luxury item so vat should be payable just like in adult clothes, restaurants, some food etc etc. it's pretty much the definition of a non essential item

It’s the same category as nursery care over 4, university, afterschool and breakfast / dinner clubs. If vat is added to private school fees it will eventually be added to everything and make inequalities even worse.

Vivi0 · 17/10/2023 22:37

CatamaranViper · 17/10/2023 21:10

Every child should be entitled to a fair and good education.

Unfortunately the people with the most influence tend to be the ones with the most money. If their kids were in state schools, state schools would be much better.

It's hard enough in life without taking opportunities away from children and giving them to ones whose parents earn that extra zero.

This arguement doesn’t work.

If their children were in state schools, they would be in the top performing state schools because they would be able to afford the catchment area house prices.

Where I live, some state schools are just as good as private schools.

So, really, if their children were in state schools the inequality in state schools would be exactly the same. The only difference being that there would be no private schools to point the finger at.

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 17/10/2023 22:38

I think labour is going for the private schools as they know that the Tory's all being eton or boarding school people is u popular so it seems like they're standing up to that old boys club

Alo3Vera · 17/10/2023 22:43

Bloodsweatntears

Well then you explain why Sutton think private school connections are an issue. Also could you explain why a state educated kid with top grades is likely to be under represented in the the top tier of jobs and unis.

JustAMinutePleass · 17/10/2023 22:43

Alo3Vera · 17/10/2023 22:30

Mammyofonlyone

Um you can tutor your kids on the 11+ by spending a lot less than that. I know many that diy at home using the same books as supposed tutors. Actually your extreme sum of £200 a month for a year does not make anybody rich in the same way that being able to afford private fees for a whole school life does. £200 a month for a year is doable for many, fees that are more than many earn for 14 years isn’t.

Advice like yours re Home tutoring is why so many stare children without 11+ conndctions fail the 11+. You can only tutor in this way for exam prep when children have been taught all the material they need to learn for the 11+. State schools (except for a very few) don’t teach all of the material. So if a child is to succeed they need to learn the material the National Curriculum material + the extra material required + prep for the test and be at least 1 year ahead (ie finish all their work by year 5) so the time until exam is just prep.

Do you have any idea how difficult that is for any state educated child whose parents don’t spend the cash / are a teacher? I know friends and family who are teachers and have to take reduced hours to home tutor their children from year 3/4 because to do it properly takes 2-3 hours a day.

DdraigGoch · 17/10/2023 22:44

Ferniebrook · 17/10/2023 21:34

Yes we could. My son is also v bright (was in top groups at primary - I went to Cambridge Uni) but I don't believe in it. So far so good in the local comp!

What if the local comp wasn't so good? Or your son didn't get on with the standardised curriculum? Or the local comp was religious and you were implacably opposed to that? Or the local comp had rebadged its toilets as 'gender neutral' and was teaching the kids that males are women if they say they are.

I've got no money on the private school horse, I just believe that everyone should have the freedom to choose where their children are educated, outwith the state system if they want. I don't believe that people should be financially penalised for this.

Lovelyjubleee · 17/10/2023 22:44

NashvilleQueen · 17/10/2023 22:22

'Surely the argument should be that state schools must be brought up to the same level? So all DCs have access to an excellent education.'

But people who choose to fund private schools won't vote for a government who say that they're going to increase taxes in order to massively improve state provision. They'll just opt out and carry on voting Tory (generalising but I suspect largely accurate).

Only 7% of DC are privately educated. Private school parents are an even lower % of the population of this country.

I don't therefore think you can pin the blame for the Tory government and lack of funding on private school parents.

In fact, they will probably be already be paying significant sums in tax to help fund state education.

Alo3Vera · 17/10/2023 22:45

Vivi0

Unless those state schools is the select tiny bunch in London that is over represented in the top unis it doesn’t matter how good those state schools are as pupils from them will still find it harder than privately educated olds to get into the top unis and jobs.

MasterBeth · 17/10/2023 22:45

Highandlows · 17/10/2023 22:18

If there were not private schools here I would move abroad where frankly the fees are much lower anyway for international schools.

Bye bye.

yoube12345 · 17/10/2023 22:52

ABCXYZ17 · 17/10/2023 21:59

You need to understand that education should be a leveller. The issue with private schools is that parents who care and are engaged enough to spend money on private schools fail to contribute to their local school. If these families went to the local school it would benefit all. A greater number of parents invested, more pupils in that school who come from supportive backgrounds benefits everyone.
You also need to understand that there is a disproportionate advantage in going to private school compared to state schools when it comes to university places and job opportunities. Interestingly pupils who went to state school with the same A level grades as a pupil who went to private school go on to get better degrees. Yet they are still disadvantaged in the jobs market. Education should enable our society to be a true meritocracy but the private school system prevents this. That is why I have a problem with it.

Why do I have to send my child to the local state school to raise the standards there? Why is it my responsibility to raise the standards of the local state school by gambling with my child's education? Because I am an engaged parent I have to try and make up for other parents who aren't bothered and so produce children who aren't bothered.

For context I work in a difficult primary and the behaviour I see from parents and children is awful. I spend so much of my day dealing with behaviour. This is not a funding issue it's a poor parenting one!

JustAMinutePleass · 17/10/2023 22:53

Tiredalwaystired · 17/10/2023 22:18

I’ve seen posters on Mumsnet who have openly said that their very academically average family members have used the old boys network from their private school and now earn six figure sums. It’s that sort of inequality that I most have a problem with. Nothing about quality of education or learning new skills (for example out of school piano lessons) which also takes hard graft.

it’s the money can buy you the “right” connections that I have the biggest issue with.

I also understand why smaller class sizes are the appeal for children who may need more help to thrive though and I do t have a problem with that.

This happens mostly in medicine, law and dentistry. Kids without connections don’t pass the exam or even have a hope of getting relevant work experience. Eg cousin was recently rejected by all the UK medical schools he applied for (with 4 A star predictions) because the best he could do was a pharmacy related placement. He’s now studying medicine at Yale (his family, like many families in Outstanding state schools, are rich and so are paying for the university in full).

JustAMinutePleass · 17/10/2023 22:54

yoube12345 · 17/10/2023 22:52

Why do I have to send my child to the local state school to raise the standards there? Why is it my responsibility to raise the standards of the local state school by gambling with my child's education? Because I am an engaged parent I have to try and make up for other parents who aren't bothered and so produce children who aren't bothered.

For context I work in a difficult primary and the behaviour I see from parents and children is awful. I spend so much of my day dealing with behaviour. This is not a funding issue it's a poor parenting one!

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Finally someone was brave enough to say it

DdraigGoch · 17/10/2023 22:59

ToadOnTheHill · 17/10/2023 22:23

@DdraigGoch if there were no failing schools noone would buy their way out of the system.

Well yes, that's the point I've been making.

Mooshamoo · 17/10/2023 23:00

The moral question is - shouldn't all children be allowed equal education.

Also I think parents send their children to private school, not just for a better education, but as a form of elitism. To seperate their child from the common riff raff.

I cant have my rich boy Felix playing with poor John.

It feeds into elitism and inequalities that last way beyond school. I know adults that will only be friends with other adults that went to the right school.

Vivi0 · 17/10/2023 23:01

yoube12345 · 17/10/2023 22:52

Why do I have to send my child to the local state school to raise the standards there? Why is it my responsibility to raise the standards of the local state school by gambling with my child's education? Because I am an engaged parent I have to try and make up for other parents who aren't bothered and so produce children who aren't bothered.

For context I work in a difficult primary and the behaviour I see from parents and children is awful. I spend so much of my day dealing with behaviour. This is not a funding issue it's a poor parenting one!

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I grew up in an impoverished area and attended the local school. Children attending or not attending private school made no difference to the outcome of the majority of children I went to school with. It is very much a social issue.

Middlelanehogger · 17/10/2023 23:02

Interesting thread.

I don't agree that the primary purpose of education is to be a social leveler.

I think it's to provide the country with a more educated (and therefore economically productive) workforce overall. Which is neutral/agnostic as to whether the benefits are equally distributed.

Side effects like social mobility and mild cultural indoctrination are pleasant extras.

Vivi0 · 17/10/2023 23:02

Mooshamoo · 17/10/2023 23:00

The moral question is - shouldn't all children be allowed equal education.

Also I think parents send their children to private school, not just for a better education, but as a form of elitism. To seperate their child from the common riff raff.

I cant have my rich boy Felix playing with poor John.

It feeds into elitism and inequalities that last way beyond school. I know adults that will only be friends with other adults that went to the right school.

Labour’s decision to add VAT to school fees are only going to make those schools even more elite.

Mooshamoo · 17/10/2023 23:02

Rich people can only feel rich and powerful by seperation themselves and looking down on poorer people.

That is the truth of it.

We will feel better about ourselves by making poor people feel worse about themselves.

We will feel better about ourselves by making poor people not have the same access to good education for their children

yoube12345 · 17/10/2023 23:03

Mooshamoo · 17/10/2023 23:00

The moral question is - shouldn't all children be allowed equal education.

Also I think parents send their children to private school, not just for a better education, but as a form of elitism. To seperate their child from the common riff raff.

I cant have my rich boy Felix playing with poor John.

It feeds into elitism and inequalities that last way beyond school. I know adults that will only be friends with other adults that went to the right school.

Not all children are born to good parents and that is the route cause of the problem that I see.

My primary is really difficult and children arrive barely potty trained and barely speaking. All my staff try but we cannot fix bad disengaged parents and neither will an influx of wealthier parents.

DdraigGoch · 17/10/2023 23:04

gotomomo · 17/10/2023 22:28

Because traditionally private schools have been over represented in politics, top jobs etc. the networking opportunities, the soft skills that give students a huge boost to their careers. Doesn't seem fair whereas swimming and violin lessons just don't have the same impact. I don't agree with the 11+ either as it's not a level playing field, most areas don't have grammars do those in grammar areas have unfair advantage

So private schools help their alumni to get ahead by giving them the confidence that makes them interview well and give good speeches?

If we want state-educated kids to have the same advantage, why don't we add it to the curriculum (and fund it properly)?

The answer to "they've got something I haven't got" should always be to make everyone have that thing, not to take it away from those who've got it. Making everything equally crap is no solution to inequality.

fulawitt · 17/10/2023 23:05

Well as long as public schools work like private schools I don't have any issue with any of them... I guess. Either everyone pays or it's free for everyone.

yoube12345 · 17/10/2023 23:06

@Vivi0

This is exactly my point and what I see.

Adding in more 'advantaged' children will not help the truly disadvantaged (in this context those children coming from disengaged bad parents) children. In all likelihood it will simply negatively affect those advantaged's children's outcomes.

yoube12345 · 17/10/2023 23:07

The system is rigged against you long before you start school. Not all children start from the place - I wish they did!