Private school vs private anything educational

[stopitstopitnooow]

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with:

Buying houses in expensive catchment areas
Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching
Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE

(Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians)

I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

Now musing that I'm actually quite supportive of old boys networks. I think it's genuinely a very positive value to look after your friends and let them know of opportunities and no-one would think any less of someone in a council estate doing it, so why are there different rules for someone in a naice leafy townhouse...?

One day I'll make a MN thread for it, I'm sure it'll go down a treat.

An equally good education or an equally bad education?

They won’t receive an equal education. The more motivated kids (or the ones with motivated parents) will ensure their children move up in sets. As a Vat increase would impact the children of private school teachers the most - you’ll initially get a bunch of children who are probably performing 1-2 years ahead (but not quite good enough for a scholarship) descend on a State School and raising standards for all kids. Then as time goes on - the children migrant doctors / STEM contractors who often also have tight budgets as running multiple households would descend. Thus pushing up standards even further. These parents would keep on tutoring.

So how would it be equal or fair if the top sets are all populated by kids who were / should be in private school? How would you feel if your state educated gifted and talented child doesn’t get the support they need because other children are being tutored to the top sets and are 1-2 years ahead?

Equslly good. Everyone should have the same access to education.

what if I said that all black people have to be segregated from white people into seperate schools, and the black people always have to receive worse education.

would anyone think that is ok.

So why do we do that to poor people.?

We are saying "you are poor so your children must receive worse education than us"

Finland. It's the way forward. Social mobility!!!

@Mooshamoo

Can I come and live in your utopian world it sounds marvellous!!?

It just isn't what would happen. You mix engaged children with disengaged children (typically they come from poorer backgrounds) and all that happens is education falls for everyone in the room or the disengaged get moved to set or class on their own and the more engaged children are taught separately (commonly referred to as sets!)

Some of the simplistic thinking on this thread is frankly mind boggling. “I am a good mum. I work hard” but it isn’t fair. News flash - life isn’t fair, not everyone is equal.

How do you know that would happen though
.
The private school system is not as popular in other countries, as it is in the UK

I think other countries have a much more equal schooling system than the UK, and it works well in those countries.

@Mooshamoo

Unfortunately (not 100%) the children from a wealthier background end up in a high set.

Do you think sets should be banned? Or if a child is tutored outside of school they should be made to work in a bottom set as it is their 'duty' to try and raise standards?

@Mooshamoo

I see it! Everyday I see (and struggle against) children ruining the education of other children.

The more difficult children take up so much more time than the child who sits quietly doing their work. That quiet child would also benefit from my time so I can encourage them up to the next level but my time cannot be given as that child is likely meeting the required standard so I must devote time to the child who isnt. The quiet working child is not raising the class standard but being forced to wait for the other children and so potentially not reaching their own potential.

This is where sets then come in, in later years.

The cumulative effect is the lowering of the standard not raising

If you are against the current system of 7% private schools, what would you think of a system where half or more of the schools in the country were private, but there was a more graduated scale of costs (e.g. the cheapest private schools costing £500 a year or so, with lots of intermediate gradients)?

How can you know that for sure though.

And also the point still stands that money shouldn't be able to buy children better education.

It just increases the wealth divide

@Mooshamoo

Shall we experiment using your children?

I would love to be proved wrong but in 30 years of teaching I haven't seen evidence of your utopia.

You also still miss the point that by the time the children start school they can already be a long way 'behind'.

@Mooshamoo
Good parents do use their money to help their children though. I think it's morally preferable to use your money to support your children's education than to buy a Porche.

Good parents also use their time and skills to improve their children's prospects.
Reading to your child when they are young, speaking to your child and being present for them are probably more significant factors in their development than private school. Perhaps we should ban reading your child a bedtime story given that not all parents have the time / inclination / education level to do it. Also in this category providing nutritious meals and a nice home. Or even worse (presumably) teaching your child a second language or helping with their homework. Or is time ok so you can teach your child something yourself but you can't pay someone else to do it.

Giving up or cutting down hours at work in order to spend time with your child costs a huge amount of money (often as much as a couple of sets of private school fees).

You do realise that many other countries don't use the private school system as much as the UK does, right.

The UK is particularly unusual, and it is known for its private school system. For its elitism and inequality.

Education is not like that in other countries.

Private schools exist in other countries.

But the UK is much much more entrenched in the private school system than anywhere else is.

I think that schooling is fairer in other countries^^

You said that good parents use their money to help their children.

I mean, that is a ridiculous statement. Yes every parent uses their money to help their children.

But they use what money they can afford.

Many families cannot possibly afford to send children to private schools.

Fees for private schools are usually set at a minimum of 30,000 pounds a year for one student.

Many people in the UK earn around 25,000 pounds a year.

So it's not that they are not being good parents.

Private school fees are set at a level, so that only rich families can afford them.

Why are fees so high? It is so only the extremely rich can get in.

Why can't fees be set at a lower level

Unless the child has been ill or missed a chunk of school for some other reason I think tutoring a child to get them past a particular exam like the 11+ is cruel. If they have had to labour to get into grammar school or university they will struggle and feel miserable and like a failure when they are there.

@Mooshamoo
You misunderstood me. I was just saying that if, as a parent, you can afford private school and think it would provide a good education for your children, it's better to spend it on that than other luxury items. I wasn't saying that parents who can't afford private school fees aren't good parents.

Of course not all parents have the money for private school but pretty much all good parents spend what spare money they have or at least some of it on providing the best life they can for their children. Or they may prioritise having time to spend with their children over money, which is fine and may benefit them just as much or more.

But all of these things have the side effect of putting their children at an advantage compared to children of parents who don't do these things for whatever reason. I don't think the answer to that is banning people from spending time or money on their children.

How would closing private schools improve the situation for your child? Most private schools are not just paid for places. The children have to pass rigorous tests to get in, so they are the brightest kids. The ones near me offer full scholarships to bright kids who do well in the tests but can’t afford to pay the fees. I can’t afford fees but if they offered my child a scholarship I certainly wouldn’t turn it down and say it was unfair to all the kids at the poorly performing school up the road. Closing private schools won’t magically make your school better, but it will take away opportunities from some of the brightest sparks in the country.

Do you think that removing opportunities from one group will improve the lot of the other group? Or will it just make everything equally bad?

If a politician wants to make everything equally good then they need to stop fiddling about with private schools and actually do something that would work. That means extra funding to allow class sizes to shrink and to pay teachers properly without schools having to choose between heating or staffing. Targeting private schools is a distraction.

7% of UK pupils are privately educated.

The OECD average is 18%. In Germany it's 11% - they actually have the right to private education coded into law.

I quite like the Swedish voucher system.

Again, you are not realising this point,bprobably because you live in the uk

Most other countries do not use the private school system, in the way that the UK does.

Other countries have much fairer systems

The UK is actually very unusual in how it uses the private school system. Most other countries do not have schooling like this

This is not true. Fees are absolutely not set at a minimum of £30,000 per year. Many private schools are a third of that cost. Every school is different. It’s not only the “extremely rich” families that can afford to send their children to private schools.

But Labour adding VAT to school fees is certainly sending private schooling in that direction.

Fairer or better? If the schooling is better in other countries perhaps that’s why they don’t need private schooling. My teen is at a supposedly outstanding state secondary. She was a high performer in primary, “gifted and talented” in some subject, and got a very high year 7 CAT score. At the end of year 9 she was predicted grade 4/5 in all but one GCSE. She gets no support and no challenges. She coasts along, bored. This is the education you want for all?