Page 24 | Private school vs private anything educational

stopitstopitnooow · 2023-10-17T19:38:21+00:00

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with: Buying houses in expensive catchment areas Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE (Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians) I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

Dulra · 29/10/2023 09:39

VisiblyNot25 · 29/10/2023 06:59

I appreciate everyone’s experience is different but in the examples I cite - I am actually speaking directly from my own university experience (admittedly a fair while ago). I went to a v posh university where private school kids weren’t a small minority but statistically much closer to half the student population - & it felt like it was even higher than that. People regularly laughed at & did impressions of my accent. I was regularly asked if I saw anyone get stabbed at my school. Once someone literally said to me, “did your parents just not care about education then?” (The ones who want to the poshest schools, especially the boarding schools, did talk about what school they went to. A lot. It was weird).

I was from what I’d previously thought of as a very middle class background & I still found it very isolating & demoralising. I know it can be harder for kids from working class background to not be made to feel small in those institutions. If I’d have known maybe I’d have considered going to a less posh university but I shouldn’t have had to think like that because I was as clever & capable as any privately educated kid there.

I absolutely know that state kids make up the majority of the university population - although you wouldnt believe that based on the scare stories & negative stereotypes about state education on this thread. My point is that those kinds of negative stereotypes do the majority of kids down.

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From your description of the privately schooled young adults you met in university it suggests to me that their school utterly failed in educating their pupils to be intelligent young adults. Intelligence isn't just about academic achievement, it is about social, emotional and cognitive development. The young people you describe appear to be emotionally and socially stunted in my opinion. I'd be embarrassed if any of my kids behaved that way.

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 09:56

@PumkinPorridge yes but your argument is not a justification for retaining private schools

PumkinPorridge · 29/10/2023 09:58

@Areallyboringperson
Of course I know it's not easy to improve failing schools. I never suggested it was🤷🏻‍♀️. It should be an absolute priority for the government though.

PumkinPorridge · 29/10/2023 10:02

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 09:56

@PumkinPorridge yes but your argument is not a justification for retaining private schools

I don't want to retain private schools. I know it's unrealistic but I'd like ALL selective schools banned.

Didimum · 29/10/2023 10:05

notlucreziaborgia · 29/10/2023 09:29

Her child being more important to her isn’t an argument for choosing private education, because she doesn’t need an argument. She’s perfectly entitled to make that choice, whether you personally approve or not. No one needs to justify their choices to you 🤷🏻‍♀️

That someone will prioritize their own child/ren should hardly be revelatory. I’m also not sure why denying your child/ren better opportunities solely on principle is being presented as noble, either.

Both my parents grew up in Communist countries. Despite the touted societal ideals, funnily enough, parents with the ability to still paid in various ways to get their children into desirable schools and avail them to opportunities denied others. The same thing would happen in the unlikely event of private education being banned in the UK - the parents with means would continue to provide their children with options not available to the majority.

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I didn’t ask anyone to justify their choices to me – that she chose to do so and I disagree is irrelevant. Same goes for anyone choosing to justify their choices to me. I didn’t ask. I simply said I believe that choice shouldn’t exist.

twqsd456 · 29/10/2023 10:14

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 09:08

@Areallyboringperson the point is whilst this very archaic and class based system is in place which is private schools vs state schools, we will never be anywhere near an equal opportunities based society. The sheer unfairness of one child over another because of a better funded education is frankly a travesty and it permeates every aspect of British society. Every single state institution from the monarchy to the army business are all dominated by children who went to a private school. Whether you see that fact or not is irrelevant.

When we see people being deliberately segregated from great careers or access to some of these elite areas of British life just because of their schooling background which equates to class really, then don’t be surprised when we don’t collectively fulfil our potential as a country.

Private schooling is just social engineering at its finest

Are you also against sets in school?

twqsd456 · 29/10/2023 10:17

PumkinPorridge · 29/10/2023 09:16

I'm really against any selective schools (private schools, faith schools and grammars). My kids went to the local 'leafy' comp and did well, they are all in good professions. However I would have and could have sent them private if I needed to.

I still think selective schools are awful. Imagine if everyone's child had to go to the local school. There would be uproar and I bet that there would be huge pressure to improve state schools. Rather than practically ignoring state schools that have become sink schools the government should be focusing on them and doing whatever it takes to improve them. A decent education is incredibly important and some children are denied it.

If you look at the stats it's absolutely shocking how poor some schools are.

There will always be inequalities in life but the opportunity to have a good education shouldn't be one of them.

Unfortunately most of the top politicians, policy makers and BBC reporters etc etc went to private schools or grammar schools themselves.

What about sets or people buyi g house by 'good'schools?

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:23

@twqsd456 no of course not - that is part and parcel of applying academic rigour. Im
not sure how this applies to this debate 🤔

twqsd456 · 29/10/2023 10:26

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:23

@twqsd456 no of course not - that is part and parcel of applying academic rigour. Im
not sure how this applies to this debate 🤔

Because some seem against anything selective that may give some children an advantage

labamba007 · 29/10/2023 10:30

When people think of private schools they think of Eton. Not the many, many schools that support students with SEN. Or schools that specialise in sports or the arts (believe it or not, a lot of private schools aren't aimed at academic students). Some private schools charge £500-600 a month - of course, a lot but not tens of thousands a year. Many parents have old cars and no holidays to send their children there because that's a choice they make. Personally I don't think state schools should pay VAT at all, but the hatred towards private schools when most are nothing like Eton is baffling.

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:32

@twqsd456 oh I see your point. Now being selective is completely different from arbitrarily using money to create this social division through education.

you will always have people with different abilities etc and of course education needs to reflect that

The state should be the best way for this.

The idea the state couldn’t provide world class education is nonsense- where there’s a will there is a way. Just look at the British armed forces - all state funded and one of the best in the world.

why couldn’t the same vision be applied to education? In my view rightly or wrongly I can’t help feeling that a core group of the upper middle and upper classes do not want to have anything like equal opportunity when it comes to education.

the idea that it can’t be done is simply not true

Circe7 · 29/10/2023 10:32

@labamba007
There was a comment about state schools paying VAT upthread. They can recover all the VAT they pay under specific legislation. Same for academies.

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:37

@labamba007

This not about “hating “ private schools per se. Also of course SEN provision does sometimes require something more specialised and therefore the private route could be one. But arbitrarily having a two tier system which by its very nature deliberately discriminates against children from less wealthy back grounds is crazy. May I just say not conducive to utilising all the great talent the UK has.

Just imagine how great it would be if every child had access to a world class education ?

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:38

Incidentally the VAT charge proposed by Labour is just politicking with no real prospect of making a difference

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:42

For what it’s worth - my solution would be to nationalise all the private schools bringing them back in to the state sector - have a very clear funding vision of 10-20 years - almost like the way Harvard in the US use a combination of private and public money to create this world class education sector.

It could work very well. Then you would no longer have this terrible divide - I realise life is not a utopia but by having true equality in educational terms would bring out the best

sep135 · 29/10/2023 10:50

For what it’s worth - my solution would be to nationalise all the private schools bringing them back in to the state sector

In terms of curriculum or physical assets? The latter wouldn't be achievable.

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:52

sep135 - both - it could be done with the right political will.

twqsd456 · 29/10/2023 10:52

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:32

@twqsd456 oh I see your point. Now being selective is completely different from arbitrarily using money to create this social division through education.

you will always have people with different abilities etc and of course education needs to reflect that

The state should be the best way for this.

The idea the state couldn’t provide world class education is nonsense- where there’s a will there is a way. Just look at the British armed forces - all state funded and one of the best in the world.

why couldn’t the same vision be applied to education? In my view rightly or wrongly I can’t help feeling that a core group of the upper middle and upper classes do not want to have anything like equal opportunity when it comes to education.

the idea that it can’t be done is simply not true

But those with money will then just buy houses near the best schools. Perpetuating the inequality! Unless you propose to allocate housing randomly too?

sep135 · 29/10/2023 11:01

sep135 - both - it could be done with the right political will.

As I explained earlier, it simply isn't possible to buy all the physical assets of private schools. They're often not owned by the school themselves (ours are owned by a separate company) and I doubt compulsory purchase would be legal or financeable.

Even if you could acquire them, where's the money coming from to maintain listed buildings and acres of grounds? When schools barely have the funds to buy the basics. Plus the influx of all the private school pupils to fund on top.

Didimum · 29/10/2023 11:29

twqsd456 · 29/10/2023 10:52

But those with money will then just buy houses near the best schools. Perpetuating the inequality! Unless you propose to allocate housing randomly too?

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So let them buy houses in the catchment areas of ‘the best’ schools. This is only a derailment to another issue that erodes fair education for all, not an argument to the positives of paid-for or selective education.

Alargeoneplease89 · 29/10/2023 11:30

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 28/10/2023 14:14

But why when they're not existing to make a profit, they exist to do something good (educate people- their fee paying students, their bursary students and local people who are often invited to hear their talks or use their sports grounds etc)? They are not limited companies so why should they be treated like that?

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Ofcourse they are existing to make a profit you don't pay thousands for nothing, it's a service the exact same if you pay for private healthcare.... ofcourse you pay tax for a better service.
It's a two tier system - why should you not pay tax?

Only 1% of places are given to poorer children.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2023/mar/12/uk-private-schools-rush-to-expand-overseas-as-profits-soar

I'm not against private schools but it's insane to think there are any that are charity status.

UK private schools rush to expand overseas as profits soar

Forty schools took in record £29m in 2020-21 from satellites, including in developing countries

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2023/mar/12/uk-private-schools-rush-to-expand-overseas-as-profits-soar

EmpressoftheMundane · 29/10/2023 11:38

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:42

For what it’s worth - my solution would be to nationalise all the private schools bringing them back in to the state sector - have a very clear funding vision of 10-20 years - almost like the way Harvard in the US use a combination of private and public money to create this world class education sector.

It could work very well. Then you would no longer have this terrible divide - I realise life is not a utopia but by having true equality in educational terms would bring out the best

Now I really am gobsmacked. You see Harvard as a good example! It’s a hedge fund with a small university attached. It’s embroiled in access issues. It gives privileged children a leg up because they fence or row or play la crosse.

GreenAppleCrumble · 29/10/2023 11:57

@Ferniebrook

Come on, you’re clutching at straws here..it would be the same in any school. If he went private I’d still hope he’d have the sense to not be friends with children taking drugs..,

If it’s ‘the same in any school’ why are we even discussing the differences between the two types of school? Of course it’s not the same! There is worse behaviour in state schools and less possibility of removing unacceptable behaviour.

PumkinPorridge · 29/10/2023 12:11

The whole argument that rich people will just buy houses next to the good state schools is obviously an issue but could be somewhat mitigated by massively targeting the poorly performing schools.

Also more thought could be given to catchment areas to help ensure schools have students from all backgrounds.

Schools should cater to all students. Including the most academic schools. Streaming within schools is a good thing.

None of this would be easy or cheap or quick but surely wanting all children to be able to access a good education regardless of their backgrounds is a good idea.

twqsd456 · 29/10/2023 12:17

PumkinPorridge · 29/10/2023 12:11

The whole argument that rich people will just buy houses next to the good state schools is obviously an issue but could be somewhat mitigated by massively targeting the poorly performing schools.

Also more thought could be given to catchment areas to help ensure schools have students from all backgrounds.

Schools should cater to all students. Including the most academic schools. Streaming within schools is a good thing.

None of this would be easy or cheap or quick but surely wanting all children to be able to access a good education regardless of their backgrounds is a good idea.

Do you also have a magic solution to the fact lots of children start education already behind due to parents or is an acceptable disadvantage?

Or the fact top sets are likely to be populated by more privileged children?