Private school vs private anything educational

[stopitstopitnooow]

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with:

Buying houses in expensive catchment areas
Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching
Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE

(Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians)

I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

Apparently 93% of parents using state schools don’t provide enough pressure to improve their quality, so it’s both the responsibility and fault of the 7%. Lol. As if they’re not already paying towards a service they don’t use.

No. What would happen is a select number of schools would benefit, the ones parent would flock to, and would essentially operate as nationalized private schools. It’s not like it’s the case that all state schools are equal, and banning private schools wouldn’t be waving a magic wand to make them so.

Not that all parents would shrug and send their kids to state schools. Some would send their children abroad to be educated, some would home educate and/or employ private tutors, and others would set up educational cooperatives with other parents in the same position.

@twqsd456
The guardian had a stat about poorer children being 1 year behind in language and literacy at age 5 and 18 months behind academically at GCSE level. I really don’t see how adding a couple of children from private school to their class (who would probably be in a different set anyway) and having their pushy parents occasionally write to the school could do anything to address that.

I agree, all children should access a world class education system. However this will take more than closing private schools.

The majority of countries offer private schools, those that don't like Finland have a drastically different culture to the UK.

University and pre-school education would be free. Teachers would be highly respected and base education on research and what is best for the child (fwiw, teachers in the UK need paying far more than they do!)

Bullying is still a huge problem in Finnish schools (which is one of the big reasons parents in the UK transfer their children from state school to private - to try to stamp that out)

It's a complex issue which is argued by the vast majority as private school = bad.

Exactly!

Loads of European countries have elements of private schooling even Nordic countries like Sweden " In 2022–2023, independent schools attracted 16.2 per cent of all compulsory school students and 31.3 per cent of all upper secondary school students." Nordic countries are often considered more egalitarian.
Are you saying every country in the world should ban private schooling? Are you saying that every country with private schooling has education that is deteriorated?
I remain of the view the issue is the elitism of the few schools that dominate popular thinking eg Eton rather than private schooling per se that is the issue (VAT aside)

I do not believe in paying or selecting for standard education, regardless of country. Depending on the economic, political and other differing contextual factors of individual countries, yes I do believe that it harms education for all.

I don’t think private schools are comparable with the other things you cite in that they are specific to a hobby or subject or a time period (11+, GCSEs) and are optional. Schooling is compulsory through children’s lives and they learn more than just academic subjects- like social skills, collaboration etc. I don’t like private schools because they perpetuate inequality which leads to all sorts of other issues for society and ultimately the treasury. Children who are all ready privileged get even more when the money could be channelled into the state sector through taxes benefitting society as a whole. But that comes down to philosophical stances on collectivism vs individualism rather than pragmatic ones based on the current structures we live in. Private schools do highlight the myth of meritocracy in they facilitate mediocre students, where children from state schools, particularly those who live in more deprived areas appear a lot more talented when they do well. Citing envy as a reason for disliking state schools is lazy wishful thinking, the same rubbish is rolled out about bankers bonuses. I don’t like people who are cruel to animals for example, but I'm not envious of them.

Citing envy as a reason for disliking state schools is lazy wishful thinking, the same rubbish is rolled out about bankers bonuses. I don’t like people who are cruel to animals for example, but I'm not envious of them.

This doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. The example about cruelty to animals is just bizarre.

The bottom line is that private schools produce better results and generally give a more pleasant experience. They are a privilege and they are, broadly speaking, only accessible to the rich. That is not great, but there are many things that are only accessible to the rich. It’s not so much that we should be fine with it because loads of things are unfair, but that it’s weird to pick on this one thing as being the sole thing that’s unacceptably unfair, arguing that it’s different from buying anything else (including healthcare, it would seem). People can buy all sorts of privileges. Private school is really no different.

Ideally, no, private schools wouldn’t be needed. But the very fact that there’s a market for them is testimony to the fact that state schools are not good enough. They’re just not.

The wealthy will always find ways to buy advantage for their children so banning private schools is pointless. However having a system where they are considered charitable organisations and can exploit tax loopholes on fees is a whole different kettle of fish. People should pay fully for the luxury that they are.

The difference between private schooling and paying for musical tuition or other extra-curricular activities is exactly that the latter are extra-curricular and are not offered as part of the free state offering (yes, okay they get a handful of swimming lessons, but that is it).

How do you propose that anyone learns a musical instrument if lessons are not purchased beyond a small number of charitable organisations that offer lessons for free on certain instruments in certain areas? Even lessons offered through state schools are paid for - beyond the local brass band round our way there is no way of learning an instrument without paying for tuition.

It’s buying access to things that aren’t available to those who can’t afford them. Things that are a privilege to have access to, that provide advantages.

Of course there are whose dislike it based on a genuine belief in ideological principles, but it’s disingenuous to pretend that there aren’t those that dislike private schooling because of envy. Claiming the former allows people to at least appear virtuous, whereas very few ever admit to the latter.

I have DC in private and state. The DC in private is there because he fell apart in state and they didn't have the resources to support him. By their own admission. State schools are on their knees and taxing indies while driving more children into them is not going to solve it. But it will appease those who dislike the idea that another child should have an advantage over theirs.

Not sure if those same people have the same issues with accessing private medical care though.

You have one in state and one in private?!

Get ready for resentful adults

There is, or was, an old 1970s "meme" that seems apposite here: the more bread you got, the less shit you eat.

If you are able to earn better than someone else, because of your intelligence, education and application, then you have a better menu of choices.

If you cannot be bothered to apply yourself to education, which is the universal worldwide route to self improvement, then you get the rewards you exerted yourself for.

The amount of effort put in at school, and the parental encouragement to support it, is directly related to income as adults. With apologies to all the hardworking people with children who are ND or have SEN issues, ability (as adults) rises to the top. We can try to mitigate the situation for the rest, but it is ridiculous to suggest that because little Joe's parents never got past shelf stacking that little Joe is going to work in investment banking. He didn't inherit the genes.

@Papyrophile Thanks for saying out loud what I think many private/ public school fans believe (although I have reported). How many of you are also eugenicists with superiority complexes I wonder? It’s such a good look, I’m green with envy.

It’s not weird to ‘pick on’ because education is a fundamental human right that should be free and accessible to all. And state schooling would see improvements with the removal of selective schools, as evidenced by the counties that do not have grammar schools.

In addition to that, 2020 research by the University of York found that private students were 15% more likely to experience bullying and 24% more more likely to engage in high risk behaviours, such as unsafe sex among others, and started drinking alcohol at an earlier age – hardly a more pleasant experience.

A friend of mine is a researcher in genetics at UCL and, sadly, the evidence does indeed point that way. You’ll see from my posts that I am against private education.

Well, food and water, shelter and warmth are even more basic human rights, surely? They’re not free…

People get weird about education. It’s understandable because we want the best for our children, but it’s no different from all the other (more basic) rights. Money gets you more or better stuff.

Your statistics on private school bullying etc are interesting. If private schools are so traumatic, just let us get on with it and they’ll surely wither away if they’re that awful? Back in the real world, everyone knows that behaviour is better, or at the very least easier to control, in a small class with invested parents in the background.

Only an idiot thinks that IQ test are a reliable indicator of innate “intelligence” - whatever that is. They are heavily socially constructed.

Extraordinary eugenics crap in this post. Reported.

Any geneticist with such a view would be called out by their peers immediately. The determinants of health and education are very similar and genetics and behaviour are a very small part of the picture. Social and structural determinants are much more important. You’re not genetically superior no matter what you tell yourself

Also this.

It’s definitely not envy. I wanted my dd to go to a comp, and didn’t put her up for a selective school she may well have got into as it was high pressure and girls only and I didn’t want that environment for her - and it was def the right decision. School is about more than education- it’s a grounding for life.

Look at what Eton has done to this country with what it’s produced .

@KellyanneConway why would you report my post? It's not very different to me stating that I am a good cook and that my DS is a chef in a 5 star restaurant because he has been brought up eating tasty food. I am a very good cook, I read recipes all the time, and try some of them. If they are rubbish (and published) I tend to say so. Intelligence is heritable. As are most family traits. Some have big ears. Some have long second toes... so what?

I didn’t say food, water and shelter were free – that’s irrelevant, because it’s a right that education should be be free. The purchase of ‘better’ food or water also does not siphon off adequate food or water for another group of people.

I also simply posted the statistics from a recent study – odd that you should label it ‘traumatic’ and ‘awful’. Do you often insert irrelevant language into your arguments?

I’m afraid I’m not a fan of letting people ‘get on’ with institutions that harm wider education for all children. If a thread exists inviting to give opinion on it, I will give mine.

A more radical idea. Ban private school from charging more than a certain amount of fees. Tighten up curriculum for first 10 years (reception to year 8) woth common national exams, whether private or state. Make all schools must offer access to broad extra curriculars and can charge for those (specialist music, sports, arts, tech etc). More specialist vocational, arts and technical schools from year 9 onwards. We don't need everybody going to university to become managers of lots of grads without any actual skills. It's 2023. Such an antiquated education system.