Private school vs private anything educational

[stopitstopitnooow]

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with:

Buying houses in expensive catchment areas
Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching
Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE

(Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians)

I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

Where is the 25% figure from? What is the source?

It can (& I personally think is) very much be both - because no matter how brilliant state schools are & how fantastically kids do there, they’re still
at a disadvantage, firstly because of the persistent stereotypes about “big standard comps” & secondly because kids who go to those schools are not part of the old boys network and don’t get the favours certain types of people give to the alumni of their own alma mater.

Greenapple, wanting all kids to have equal chance at education is not wanting it both ways

Our local comp isn't the worst, but I certainly heard a lot of stories from parents with kids there - and from kids themselves. In more than one family, the older child said to the parents, "Don't send my younger sibling there, it's awful and they will struggle." Doesn't inspire confidence, does it, when you hear things like that from the horse's mouth.

I sent my child private due to in Scotland there being no effective behavioural control available to school management. This results in truly dire state schools. I’m not surprised private schools do so much better. The kids are being taught uninterrupted because any disruptive pupils are removed. That alone would make a VAST difference to the learning that goes on. Truly vast. Imagine your state school child could choose between 20mins of learning per period and 20 mins of teacher doing anger management; or 40 mins of learning. It really isn’t hard.

The department for education in Scotland could improve results in an instance by reintroducing permanent exclusion. This is the main divide in the system that I can see and the education department are actively encouraging it.

Drugs - it’s well worth the gamble. My child’s mental health was teetering on the brink due to the daily assaults. Now they’re happy again.

The posters I’m most jealous of are those with good state schools. That’s the dream.

Visbly25, it's perfectly possible to do very well in life without being part of an old boys network

I absolutely agree - I went to state school & do very well, as do the vast majority of my state educated friends. The point I’m making is in lots of professions (my own included) the old boys network is rife. It is harder to do well without it & it shouldn’t be.

No, it’s not. But people simultaneously arguing that state schools are great and that private schools have unfair advantage are being a bit contradictory.

@VisiblyNot25

Firstly, how can state school pupils be

at a disadvantage, firstly because of the persistent stereotypes about “big standard comps”

if those stereotypes are not, according to you, accurate? Surely those pupils, if anything, are lauded for defying those stereotypes? I genuinely don’t see how those stereotypes can materially affect pupils for the worse?

You then say:

secondly because kids who go to those schools are not part of the old boys network and don’t get the favours certain types of people give to the alumni of their own alma mater.

This perplexes me. I am second-generation private school, as it were. I am in no networks 😂I see friends of mine who don’t send their kids to private school making all sorts of connections in their high-paying corporate jobs. It’s not like that any more.

@GreenAppleCrumble

Speaking from my own experience, stereotypes about state school kids disadvantage the kids who go there, because it lowers your self esteem for your school to be laughed at when you’re one of the few state school kids in a university seminar. Its demoralising to be asked patronising questions about knife crime & gangs at your school.

Maybe it depends on the industry, but in my field those old boys networks are rife - people recommending old school mates for jobs etc, etc.

In my opinion, it’s absolutely those networks that lead to the enormous over representation of privately educated people in certain professions rather than better educational standards per se.

So, in my opinion both things can be true at once - state schools can be much, much better than people on mumsnet say & private school can still give an unfair advantage. That’s why in my opinion to level the playing field a bit taking money from private to state education is right & fair.

I don’t doubt your experience. But mine is vastly different.

I might venture to say that you are considerably better off, financially, than I am. It certainly sounds like it based on the allusions you make to your industry.

I’m just a teacher. I’ve managed to contrive a situation whereby I send my children to private school because I work there. It’s still financially crippling. But I value education above a big house and fancy cars.

I find it hard to be told by high-earning professionals that my choices are elitist when I see how other people spend their money. I simply want my children to enjoy school.

between which groups ? and why is not wanting to mix with some students that dont want to study in some state schools a bad thing ? and i always presume that private does have a mix of people >?

personally what is wrong with being elite, someone has to be the captains of various industry's etc the next Branson's, the next sugar, and so on

I genuinely don’t in any way judge you - or any other parent - for making whatever decisions they want for their own kids education.

But on a societal level, I do believe private schools create an uneven playing field. And I think governments should try & level that playing field & one way to do that is by using the money raised through VAT to improve the funding situation in our state schools where the vast, vast majority of children in our society are educated.

It certainly would be nice to think that a labour government would use those funds in the way you suggest. It would be wonderful if there were no need for private schools. But I don’t see it happening. I think all the talk about taking away tax breaks for private schools is purely vote-seeking rhetoric tapping into people’s prejudices. If government really wanted to improve education, that would not be the place to start, either financially or ideologically. It’s just cynical politics.

VAT is a total red herring. There won't be anywhere near enough money raised via VAT on private school fees to do anything really helpful. Honestly, parents need to start demonstrating or something, refusing to vote for any party that won't guarantee proper investment in children (not just schools), whatever it takes. Even with my child in a private school, I would join in not least because not funding children properly makes absolutely everyone's lives worse by far.

A mix of rich people? Clearly there are no poor people in private schools. Maybe 1 or 2 on a bursary but tiny numbers. That is one of reasons why it is massive no no for me. I want my child to mix with all backgrounds not just privileged. I prefer it when people are honest - if you’re saying you don’t want your kids mixing with state school kids that’s your decision.

I really can’t see any private school parents doing it due to who the kids are mixing with outwith the very narrow wedge that is Erin etc. We’ve moved on from the Victoria era. Some people just seem to have big chips on they shoulder about certain people getting jobs depending on who they know, rather than merit. And yes the private school kid probably has more ‘merit’ as they have had a better education. That’s what people are paying for. Away from unconstrained violent and disruption, away from endless supply teachers teaching things not necessarily their specialty, away from accusations of the academically talented being uncool.

And I mean those from private school get jobs on MERIT not who they know

That’s a useful narrative for people convincing themselves it was their only option.

Very apt perspectives

Apt? Not very well written.

i beg to differ on your interpretation, could you expand your analysis please ?

I hadn’t yet dived into this thread, so realise I might be beating a dead horse now over 20 pages in, but I find your comparisons laughable, OP.

Education is a complete fundamental (as is healthcare), not to mention where children spend the vast majority or their time and are primarily socialised. It should be standardised and fair for all. Your comparisons are laughable because they are not nearly as cost prohibitive or important. They are enriching activities, they are not human rights.

For those reasons I am hugely against grammar schools also. They are a proven detriment to non-grammar schools in the areas in which they exist. Selective schools make education worse.

The private schools near me which I have heard stats about all seem to have between 10% and 25% children on bursaries (obviously not all of these would necessarily be full bursaries) so definitely not one or two kids. The one school I do know more details about, which is my daughter's school, says the majority of those on bursaries at the school are receiving full fee remission. I was at a talk at her school not long ago where the head teacher said that she was proud to say that they had never had to turn away anyone who passed the exam on financial grounds. Quite a few of the better known schools have stated their intention to aim to raise money to move to needs blind admission so that anyone who passes the exam will be able to go there regardless of finances. So while it's not perfect, it's certainly not one or two children even per year, let alone per school.