to wonder if all these parents who expect family support have given family support

[lesserspotted]

I'm always amazed at the people on here who add " we don't have any family support" to their posts, as if "family support" is an expectation, and you are hard done by if you don't get it. It seems like people expect their relatives to come and do work for them, child care, housework, DIY, etc.

Surely relatives have their own lives, and their own work? I don't know how people are expected to find hours of free time suddenly just because someone they are related to has a baby.

"Family support" is not something I have ever witnessed or experienced in my own life, as a child or a parent, or among friends.

I wonder if the people who are upset they don't have any have actually given "family support" themselves when relatives have had children

It surprises me more that there are so many people with relatives of the right age group (not too young, and not too old) and local enough to help.

We always knew that because of age and distance, practical support wasn't on the cards, but when you haven't got a support hamlet to begin with, you can't build the village. Everyone around here seems to have supportive family, and the reality of that is that they turn to them for babysitting, so there is no reciprocal arrangements, so I rarely ask unless I absolutely have to because I don't want to fall into CF territory. We're not good friends because we can't do couple socialising. DH and I haven't had a night out as a couple in over 4 years.
DS is autistic, so I'm not paying a (vetted) total stranger to invade his home.

DM has retreated into herself as she ages and is logistically difficult to communicate with. Some of that like the deafness is old age, some like refusing to learn how to send a text message 20+ years ago or not letting people in the house is pure stubborness. The decline of our relationship is not all on me, and I'm emotionally depleted from dealing with my immediate family and their additional needs and don't have abundant spare energy to chase after someone who's made decades of awkward decisions.

The bit about family support that grates on me is when people who have it assume it's a default. It's not something that can be faked- I can't magically be reborn to different parents, and not having it complicates everything else.

I hope I can be more avaliable to younger generations of my family. I'm also looking forwards to the freedom to do my own thing. I hope I make practical decisions that make old age more straightforwards to deal with when my children are adults.

I think you have misunderstood my post.

I'm not criticising people for whom it's normal, that's lovely.

I'm criticising those who place expectations on family members who don't really want to do it.

I'm also asking if people have considered that, with rising retirement ages that the likelihood that our generation will be able help our kids, is much less.

My point was really that there could be an element of, almost, different cultural expectations.

Of course, but what will happen when those cultural expectations clash with rising retirement age?

No matter what your culture it would be wrong to expect someone to retire early to look after their grand kids.

I also think it is wrong to expect people of certain cultures to favour childcare over their own retirement plans.

Factoring the cost of child care into family planning is the simple answer, then you have a contingency plan if your expectations don't pan out. Even if it is culturally expected you can't legislate for death or illness!

We've never had any family support because I live on the other side of the world from my family and DH's family are selfish arseholes. I cannot wait to become a grandparent and DH and I are already thinking about making changes so we can help with childcare.

SIL has a grandchild and looks after then 2 days a week and loves every second of it.

My inlaws had huge support from their parents. Really, insane level (they were given a house, full time childcare, entire weeks off, money) and they give us very little.
Nothing to be done about it though, its their choice,

It's more a case of, of they can't find hours of free time to help support a new family but they can find hours of free time to come over to play or cuddle grandchildren whilst being waited on by the parents, then they aren't being helpful and supportive at all and in my opinion don't deserve the fun time if they don't help out occasionally.

Thanks @sandragreen and agree, given that in 4 pages of thoughtful and heartfelt posts, the only two times OP has come back to respond have been to level accusations of racism and snobbery, with well-off white people as the victims.

My point had been that it's incredibly rare to have never - as mentioned in the OP - even witnessed one case of family support, not a grandparent doing a one-off school pickup, nor someone taking a meal to a family with a new baby or a few long calls from a newly-heartbroken sibling or child. It would be impossible to have never even witnessed it growing up in a typical UK working class community, or among most communities of colour, and the stats support this.

MN is full of posters who post about being unusually socially isolated, by choice or not. For those who aren't choosing it, I think it's helpful and important to show that it's not the norm, and that this means in many ways they might have it harder than average (or also easier, given that family support can be a double edged sword).

Assuming a white person is white is, in fact, not racism. If you are not, it's still not racism but I did make an incorrect assumption based on statistics, you are welcome to correct me, I like to learn to do better. If you are white, it could be helpful to do some reading about systemic racism so you're well-informed on the area before you accuse people of colour of racism towards white people.

OP, I wasn't on any moral high ground before, but will attempt to take it now by hoping you're ok, that you can talk directly to whoever has upset you so much in your daily life, and that you yourself aren't too isolated.

Sorry I haven’t RTFT, but was triggered by the title of your post OP. DH and I gave family support to DB & DSIL before we had DC including several overnighters. We had no agenda other than that we enjoyed being with their kids, and didn’t consider that we were paying it forwards. But not once did they ever offer to help us out with DC once ours arrived. Their kids had moved on with their lives, and that was that. Very sad, but hey that’s life 😐

I know a woman who had her first child at 40, second at 45, third at 46, who became a grandmother in her mid 50s and her life has been a whirlwind of childcare and work ever since.

I suspect that people who do have this are more likely to ensure they live close to family in the first place. Probably if you take two couples where all else is equal, and one has really helpful involved family while the other doesn't, the former are more likely to live close to them.

I point it out at times because it's quite often that people assume everyone has family support like they do. One of my dc has a friend who is collected by one of her sets of grandparents from school every day. She is often there overnights or on the weekends. Every school holiday. I actually have the number of one of her grannies because I usually go through her to organise anything with my dc's friend because she's there more than she's not. In 10 years, I think a grandparent has picked one of our dc up from school maybe twice and had an overnight with them maybe 2-3 times. I think it's easy for people for whom that level of support is the norm to just assume that it's the same for everyone.

My mum had like the maximum level of family support. My grandparents did all the school runs, had me after school every day, fed me dinner 5-6 nights a week, I often stayed over one or even both nights at the weekend, was there every school holiday, sometimes they took me on holidays with them - basically I pretty much lived with them most of the time. My mum didn't provide any real practical help, but when our eldest was young, she did sometimes help by contributing financially to our childcare costs to help us out. But definitely liked to point out regularly to us and everyone else that we couldn't do it alone and she needed to help us because we 'couldn't cope'. Forgetting, of course, that she had basically full-time childcare from when I was 3 months old until I was 10 years. Her parents also bought her a house that they paid off for her. But she's very big on self-sufficiency and everyone taking care of themselves, forgetting that in fact, she only survived because she had someone to take on pretty much full-time childrearing. I think yes, it's easy for people to forget that they have benefited from support when others might need it. It's easy to believe you are 'deserving' and others 'undeserving' when it benefits you or its inconvenient. I don't think that is just about childcare though. We absolutely see it in elder care too.

Good question. My mum got a literal world of support from her mother, for myself and my siblings as children. Consequently she has no respect for paid childcare and is perplexed as to why l won’t take my children out of childminders for the day. Obviously because l still have to pay even if they don’t go. She also provides no support herself to anyone “doesn’t like being tied down” apparently. Needless to say she will be getting very minimal if any help in her twilight years as l live miles away and work

@BogRollBOGOF your post really resonated with me. I have since returned closer to where my parents live (20 mins away), but I think the scene had long been set re their expectations.

We do not have a close relationship, there is absolutely zero support either physical or emotional. I have never been out for so much as a cup of tea alone with my mother or father.

This shocks people. My parents claim to want to see the children, but will change plans easily. They have never accompanied us on a day out/taken the children to an activity to help out.

But holy moley they can put on a brilliant show if someone they want to impress (my in-laws (who live overseas so are very rarely around)) is present!! So they know ‘how’ to act, they just decide not to do so the overwhelming majority of the time!

If I ever mention "lack of family support" personally its to pre-empt the kind suggestion of whoever I'm complaining to about having run out of leave or whatever that that would be the solution to my problem. Most of the mums at DC's school seem to have help - I often see GP's doing the school runs on regular days or a mum mentions in chat whilst we're waiting that they went out for dinner & their parents had the grandkids. In fact the ones where its the parents doing drop off & pick up every day is the minority now I think about it (albeit only just). Whilst its normal in the circles I'm now in, growing up (90's) I didn't know anyone whose GP's looked after them or did school runs, so I'm still a bit surprised whenever I hear that someone has been able to go out or whatever tbh, I tend to think its more normal to do everything yourself. I think it all depends on everyone's individual circumstances. If I am able to help with grandchildren should the time come I would be happy to do so. I hope that those who receive help would give it too though, yes!

I work FT and live nowhere near them so theres no way a could help with childcare for GCs. TBH I wasn't a super hands on parent when DCs were very small so wouldn't be the obvious choice anyway. I do help DCs financially and provide advice or a sounding board if asked.

@notquiteruralbliss Being a sounding board and giving financial support is huge, I’m sure that your children appreciate it. 💐

I am not isolated, I am not white, and I am not well off.

I am not angry either, just shocked at the blatant racism you have shown, and gobsmacked that you can apparently justify to yourself

Op, you've still not engaged with any of the posters on this very long thread about the topic at hand, and instead only ever responded to call me a (reverse) racist 4 times.

I'm not sure what you were looking to start with your thread, but this is certainly not why I post here and will leave you to it.

@KeepTheTempo Regardless of this particular thread, it’s inadvisable to make assumptions about another poster’s ethnicity. It would be unacceptable IRL if you did it, wouldn’t it?

Your tone wasn’t exactly pleasant, was it?

Really? Really really? You must have an incredibly unusual - and likely entirely white and well-off - group of friends.