To insist my 12-yr old collects nine-yr old from school

[Bigroundpear]

My nine-year-old is in year 5 at a small inner-city state primary a five minute walk from home. School policy is for children to only be able to walk home alone from year 6 which I fully accept (though I don't particularly agree with it).

Last week I let the school know that my 12-year old (who is in secondary school and travelled alone from year 5 for 40 mins each way - different school) would be collecting nine-year-old from school today. School emailed back to refuse because their policy is siblings who collect must be over 14.

I emailed back to say I will be exercising my parental responsibility, that it's up to me what happens to my child outside of school and I will not be there to collect, but my oldest child will. My kids have done this same journey alone together often (school is next to a supermarket they visit together frequently), I have risk-assessed this and feel confident that though of course there are risks, everything that needs to be is in place to prevent them coming to harm. I have prepared both kids for all eventualities with the school today, including that they may call social services (not bothered about this, know SS won't do anything).

I think the school is over stepping the mark, and should release my nine-year-old, however I'm sad I have put office staff in this position.

AIBU?

Huh? Think we've got our wires crossed. They can make a referral to SS for anything they like, shoelaces undone etc, it doesn't matter. My point was that they can refer or they can let my child go, I know that SS won't do anything having spent most of my adult life working there. My other argument was that PR specifically gives a parent the responsibility to risk assess this and that schools who say otherwise are overstepping the mark

@LadyDanburysHat
Seems an English thing, P3 here and off they go.
@PizzaPizzaYumYum
why do you think a 12 yr old cannot walk a 9yr old 5mins to their house?
These threads make it obvious why we see further threads of 17/18 yr olds incapable of doing anything for themselves. wrapped in cotton wool
with no responsibility or life skills.

It seems insane
I'm not that old but age 12 I was getting a bus from school, getting off and walking up to a stables. Riding, mucking out and full responsibility for my own horse then getting myself home
Deciding when to ring the vet, arranging the farrier, everything
Taking a 9yo home would have been a walk in the park!

Thank you. This is my whole point! If school want my child to spend three weeks learning about fishmongering instead of lessons, perhaps I may not think this is a great idea, but it's not my place to tell the school how to teach my child and I wouldn't get involved. Equally it's not the school's place to make a decision about risk to my child outside school.

Agree with that. If a 12-year-old boy cannot be relied on for basic care of a younger sibling what kind of message do we give them when we suddenly expect them to be responsible as adults?

But the school isn't making a decision about risk outside of school. They're making a decision about the handover on their premises. And their school contract should have made it clear what their rules are concerning DCs leaving the premises.

At ours year 5 can walk home alone. The point is, they don’t want your 12 year old being made into the role of parent. I agree with that. It’s your job as parent to collect or be there when DC get in from school. Presumably you don’t want to give your 9yo a key and have them home alone and your 12yo could facilitate this? It’s a dilemma but ultimately, unfair on the 12yo I think. It’s not to children to be part of a team and help facilitate your life/career.

What happens off the school ground is fine

But they need to be collected from
Classroom

Tech a stranger off the streets over 16 could say they are getting abc and give password for child

My dd is 6. She has a friend in same class with big brother who was 15 who was going to collect

Teacher said no

That is their rules

Just tell them it's fine, your 14yo nephew has agreed to collect his cousin. What are they going to do? Check his ID? If he went to a different school they won't recognise him.

Whether they like it or not, they cannot legally over ride parental responsibility. They can fuss and makes threats but they do not have the right to tell parents what they can and cannot do. Unless they can prove actual risk to the child, which would justify a call to social services, they cannot do anything.

Anyway, some kids are parents are 14 and 15, sad but true. So by their logic someone who is a parent to their own child cannot pick up a sibling....which is bonkers.

If I was that parent I would have insisted. The school can't keep the child indefinitely.

The school don’t have parental authority. I remember another thread like this and posters were absolutely insistent that their school said X so X had to be followed.

I personally wouldn’t have a problem with the schools decision. But that’s not the point. Parents everywhere make decisions I would not personally make as a parent but I don’t get to tell them they are wrong!

But this will fall on deaf ears with poster after poster insisting that their school rule is …

And what if no one else was available to fetch that child? they call SS and social services will tell them that this child has not been abandoned and to allow said child to leave.

The school has absolutely no right to refuse to allow a child to leave with the person nominated by that childs parent.

It isn’t quite the same, but it reminds me of the discussions about post natal wards. Babies are apparently not allowed to leave if they are not in a car seat. Now both mine did leave in car seats as we were going home by car but if you happened to live opposite the hospital and wanted to use a pram or sling, is that against the law? Of course it is not.

Yes they need to be collected from the classroom but it is after school hours a parent has told them who will be collecting the child they can't refuse to hand the child over surely. Maybe get the parent to sign a disclaimer if they're that concerned. I even think "handing over" children at 9 a bit old my kids from 7 up could walk out of school.

Our primary won't let anyone under 18 collect a child for safeguarding reasons. Basically you are letting a child pick up a child regardless,
This is ridiculous, parents should challenge that. There are 16-18 yr olds with their own kids but wouldn't allowed to collect a child from school.
16, 17 is not a child, young adults who should have responsibility and life skills.

I agree with @Primproperpenny
It's far too much responsibilty - and an assumption - to give a 12 year old regular sole responsibility for a 9 year old, not just on a 40 minute journey home from an inner city school, but looking after the 9 year old at home, on her own, until you finish work.
I appreciate that you say it's just 45 minutes home alone until you get home from work, but travel delays happen, plans can change.
What if your 12 year old wanted to do an after school club/go home with a friend/play sports etc?
I think you're being very unfair to your 12 year old.

This is ridiculous. A 9-year-old should be perfectly capable of walking home from school alone.
Legally, they don't have a leg to stand on. Stand your ground - I imagine SS have more than enough to deal with without storms in a teacup like this.

My 12 year old walks 2 minutes along to the primary, collects my 9 year old and then they walk home together 2 days a week. It is a 5 minute walk. Lots of other kids on the same route.
I'm actually working inside the school so I see them go and they phone me when they get in.
On sunny days, I've allowed them to walk in the opposite direction to get an ice lolly then walk home. However those days are few and far between in the north of Scotland!
Both kids are sensible. They can help themselves to a snack and start their homework. I usually get home about an hour later but can be there in 2 minutes in an emergency.

It doesn't really matter whether I as a teacher think the children can be trusted. As I said above, pa sensible safeguarding policy says if I let them go together without clear written acceptance of risk from the parents and something does happen (even for example a car accident with a speeding driver which where the presence of a parent would make no difference) or somebody else (eg a concerned member of the public) sees them misbehaving and reports it to the school, my job is in jeapordy. Apart from any potential risk to the child safety, I'm not prepared to risk my job by taking it upon myself to let a 12yo pick up a sibling without written parental permission and SLT being aware.

Only over 16's can collect children at my child's primary school.

At my kids' school (not in UK) you just check a box to let them know whether your child will be picked up or not. I seem to recall them recommending that Yr 1 children (aged 5/6) be collected but if you judge it acceptable, you can have them walk home by themselves from day 1. It's the parents' decision. A few do so - I assume the ones who live right next to the school but who knows.

The vast majority of Yr 1 children are collected but it drops off dramatically in Yr 2 and the vast majority of Yr 3 children (aged 7/8) leave independently. But if their parents said they weren't allowed then that would similarly be respected.

It's absurd to me how UK (English?) schools make this stuff their business. And I grew up in England.

Is there a word more over used than 'safeguarding' 🙄

This. When mine were in primary school (older teens now), I had a conversation with the head, who mentioned she was thinking of implementing a rule that only year 6 could leave alone (at the time it was year 4 upwards). I said it would actually make things more dangerous for the kids, as from year 7 most of them would be catching a bus to the town 10 miles away, where some would then have a walk across town and a further bus change (or a 30 min walk on busy roads). I think that's just too big a jump to expect them to reasonably manage in 1 year. Most kids lived in the (fairly quiet) village, and being able to walk home alone from year 4 when other parents/kids were doing the same journey (and parents could meet them part way at the start) was actually the safest way to start building those independent travel skills that they would need in year 7. The head didn't change the rules while we were at the school, but this was before 2015 so I have no idea what it's like there now.