Page 7 | If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

Poudretteite · 2023-10-14T13:39:40+00:00

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide? Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

Maireas · 14/10/2023 17:25

Also, get the UAE to give all Palestinian families a free holiday every year in Dubai.

Reallifelurker · 14/10/2023 17:26

The area that is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza was under British Mandate and had been since 1920. The British weren’t Arabs.

One could argue it wasn’t for the British to decide who lives where somewhere in the Middle East

The irony is that if the Palestinians had accepted the UN mandate, they would have got a lot more land than they ended up with

They have less land because of the Israelis occupation (and most of it was acquired it during a war the Israelis initiated)

Maireas · 14/10/2023 17:27

Yeah, I think "clearing out Utah" may cause some bloodshed....

Tiredandgrumpy31 · 14/10/2023 17:31

HermioneWeasley · 14/10/2023 15:00

The map is self explanatory. The idea that Israel is unreasonable having the land it does is preposterous. Yes, the way they have taken land has been unreasonable and I do not support the civilian death toll in Gaza at present, but the idea that tiny Israel should be divided up because there is nowhere for Palestinians to go is ridiculous.

What you’re suggesting then is that Palestinians should not feel upset to be pushed from the land they may have lived in for generations because they could go live in another arab country. I’m assuming you are a British citizen and you would be happy to be forced from your home land to live in another european country because that country has similar backgrounds and obviously it’s all the same.

Starlette · 14/10/2023 17:33

Newbutoldfather · 14/10/2023 16:58

Even Hamas know they went too far this time and are trying to backtrack saying that they didn’t try to kill civilians (except it was all caught on real-time video….).

And Hamas do hide behind civilians knowing Israel has a morality that they don’t.

But….starving babies in a medieval siege will only win a pyrrhic victory; it is not how civilised nations behave, regardless of provocation (though, given Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay, I am not sure who is civilised any more). I hope wiser heads in Israel and the U.S prevail. Israel has enough firepower to achieve their war objectives without targeting women and children.

The massive problem is that (the kleptocrat) Yasser Arafat rejected a really good peace deal (in my opinion because it compromised his kleptocracy) and the Palestinians then elected in Hamas, an organisation whose stated aim is the genocide of Jews (or at least ethnic cleansing out of Israel). How do you deal with a population with this aim?!

But, since then, the Israeli’s have acted very poorly too, allowing apartheid around Jerusalem and extreme Jews settling in the Palestinian areas. These are every bit as bad as Hamas, but thankfully a minority within Israel far less powerful. They honestly believe that they have a G-d-given right to the land and are the chosen people.

So, all-in-all it is a massive mess! Personally, post Hamas, I think the Israelis should unilaterally withdraw from the new settlements and help the Palestinians to become a proper trading partner and a modern society. Jerusalem should also become a global city, administered by a coalition of Jews and Moslems.

Someone needs to be the ‘bigger person’ here and Israel, backed by the might of the U.S, should take this role. There is nothing that Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran would like to see less than Jews and Palestinians living peacefully side by side in prosperity.

Most sensible post I have read today.

i’m not sure many people realise Hamas are basically the equivalent of Isis but the new Israeli government is also largely a bunch of nutty theocrats so the fabulous idea of them living side by side won’t be a starter until some moderates come back into power

LaBaDeeLaBaDa · 14/10/2023 17:35

Antst · 14/10/2023 16:58

It is not even remotely "anti-Zionist" (and certainly not antisemitism) to be horrified and disgusted by the way the Palestinians have been treated, and particularly those in the Gaza strip.

I have zero connection to either side. I grew up where there were no Jewish people and no history whatsoever of antisemitism. There were no Palestinians either and no one even vaguely associated with them. No on knew enough to have a problem with either side.

When I went to the USA, my roommate was doing a PhD on Palestinian childhood. She had to visit the Gaza strip and West Bank each summer for years for her research and still does now that she's a professor. Her reports were deeply shocking, with people routinely being forced to queue for hours to get through crossing points for jobs and to see family members in other Palestinian areas, supplies being cut off, routine bombing of civilian areas, and on and on. Conditions in the Gaza strip are horrible right now, but they're not much more horrible than they're always been.

Of course the attack on Israel that just happened cannot possibly be justified. It was horrific. It was also inevitable and it's surprising similar attacks haven't happened more often. We would not accept the kind of life that the Palestinians have had for generations now since their land was taken.

There's no perfect solution at this point, but at the VERY least, the Israelis should be stopped from oppressing the Palestinians. They should not be allowed to blockade necessary supplies or create daily misery for people relying on jobs or wanting to see family and friends in the West Bank/Gaza strip. Palestinians have traditionally had fewer rights in Israel and that's wrong.

There are people here saying that if the Palestinians were given their own country, things wouldn't improve. That's lame excuse-making. Of course they should have their own country. I think the Gaza strip should go to Israel and an equivalent or larger area of Israel added on to the West Bank so that the Palestinians aren't cut off from each other. It should go without saying that Israeli settlers should get out of Palestinian areas. The USA has added fuel to the fire by supporting the Israelis when they've encouraged settler encroachment.

I think many people my age see the Israelis as the aggressors and if the Israelis don't change, they're going to find that support from the US disappears over time as we get older and the elderly people who enable Israel disappear.

What Hamas has done is utterly evil and wrong, but desperate people do desperate things and ordinary Palestinians are being punished for it. The situation did not have to get to this point.

Antsy "Of course the attack on Israel that just happened cannot possibly be justified. It was horrific. It was also inevitable and it's surprising similar attacks haven't happened more often. We would not accept the kind of life that the Palestinians have had for generations now since their land was taken."

You literally just tried to justify it. In the same paragraph. "Inevitable". "surprising (it) hasn't happened more often". "we would not accept".^ You didn't even pause for breath^

coffeeaddict77 · 14/10/2023 17:37

Maireas · 14/10/2023 17:27

Yeah, I think "clearing out Utah" may cause some bloodshed....

Given the US seem to support Isreal and there are a lot of Jewish people there they could consider offering Isreal some land though.

Seychal · 14/10/2023 17:39

About 100 miles south from Gaza one reaches the Gulf of Aqaba . This is where Eqypt, Israel and Saudi Arabia meet.

A few miles south into Saudi Arabia, some 200 miles south of Gaza, is already being constructed a $1,000,000,000,000 mega city and urban area called Neom. It will be 70 times the size of the Gaza Strip and house 2 million people by 2040 rising to 9 million on completion in 30 years time.

Neom

Elsewhere in the Middle East, there are huge infrastructure projects underway.

The Arab Muslim world could find ways to provide infrastructure within a future land deal.

The total GDP of the Middle East is $6 trillion. The average per capita of the five wealthiest Arabian peninsula is about $74,000 per annum. Individuals from those nations own some of the most expensive real estate in Europe also. For a Palestinian the average GDP is about $6,000.

These Arabian riches should not be regarded as a vacuum. They must play a part in the future of the region and Palestinian's should be sharing in those riches.

NEOM: Made to Change

Discover NEOM: an opportunity of unprecedented scope for sustainable living, technological innovation and human progress.

https://www.neom.com/en-us

Reallifelurker · 14/10/2023 17:42

i’m not sure many people realise Hamas are basically the equivalent of Isis

Crazed jihadist terrorist you mean? I think most people probably do know that* *

But I agree the main barrier to peace is extremism on both sides.

Antst · 14/10/2023 17:45

LaBaDeeLaBaDa · 14/10/2023 17:35

Antsy "Of course the attack on Israel that just happened cannot possibly be justified. It was horrific. It was also inevitable and it's surprising similar attacks haven't happened more often. We would not accept the kind of life that the Palestinians have had for generations now since their land was taken."

You literally just tried to justify it. In the same paragraph. "Inevitable". "surprising (it) hasn't happened more often". "we would not accept".^ You didn't even pause for breath^

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No I didn't. It's possible to think the attack should never have happened, while also understanding that people at rock bottom with no other options chose it.

Your attitude is a major part of the ongoing problems. You cannot silence people into not feeling oppressed, miserable, and sick of living with bombing and military incursions into their neighbourhoods. You will try to twist things to silence people, but the attacks show how well that strategy works.

The attacks a few days ago were utterly horrific but so many Palestinians have died over the years from Israeli bombing of civilian areas and blockading of vital hospital and other supplies. It's such a pity that people like you continue to try to deny reality instead of understanding that the only way to get peace for everyone is to treat everyone with basic dignity and respect. The Palestinians need their own country where they are in control and have access to the necessities of life. When they have something to lose, they will be a lot less willing to tolerate terrorists in their midst.

headstone · 14/10/2023 17:45

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Willyoujustbequiet · 14/10/2023 17:46

In ideal world there would be a two state solution but Hamas will never accept it. They will never accept peace. Their sole desire is to annihilate Israel and the Jewish people. They are madmen.

I'm not sure there is anything Israel could do at this point. I think change has to come from within the Palestinians but they are so broken, betrayed by Hamas and no doubt in fear of them that there is little hope of that.

asterel · 14/10/2023 17:48

Well, the naming won’t really work, because it was called “Mandatory Palestine” — to indicate that the British and French were mandated by the League of Nations to oversee the area. The name was not the name of a state, but an area of British administration. And the Palestine region was the general name of a region of the Levantine part of the Ottoman Empire. A modern state called Palestine never existed; in fact the surrounding Arab countries didn’t like the idea of it either, and Jordan wanted to absorb the West Bank into Transjordan.

[Imagine a region like Alsace in France/Germany; then suppose you wanted to create a state there called Alsace and call the people Alsatian. It wouldn’t make sense to go back and say “well, what was it called beforehand?” Well, it was at points part of the German Empire and sometimes not, as it’s got a mixture of French and German culture and has belonged to both countries in relatively recent history. That’s not exactly the same as the Middle East, obviously; but there’s a similar disjunct of regional culture and nation-state borders, and it was an area that was not only fought over by several successive countries, but was at times in European history the site of quite bloodthirsty conflict and territorial massacres.]

BTW the British mandate didn’t just include provision for the Jewish people but also the Arab population as well.

asterel · 14/10/2023 17:49

Sorry, quote fail — my response above was to @Graciebobcat in reply to:

“Restore the name to whatever it was called before 1947”

lyingonthebeach · 14/10/2023 17:50

I am not anti-zionist nor am I anti-semitic. I stand with the only democracy in the Middle East. The only country in the region that treats women as equal to men (they had a woman PM before the UK) and the only country in the middle east to accept gays and their rights

Dedsec2023 · 14/10/2023 17:56

what is the current political situation in the region ?

Starlette · 14/10/2023 17:56

Reallifelurker · 14/10/2023 17:42

i’m not sure many people realise Hamas are basically the equivalent of Isis

Crazed jihadist terrorist you mean? I think most people probably do know that* *

But I agree the main barrier to peace is extremism on both sides.

Edited

From things I’m hearing a lot of people say a shocking number don’t realise this at all they think they’re brave freedom fighters

bendmeoverbackwards · 14/10/2023 18:02

etmoietmoietmoi · 14/10/2023 15:31

I'm anti religion and I do not like the fact certain religious Jews flock there in hopes of bringing the Messiah and end times blah blah blah.

Very, very few (or any?) Jews "flock there in hopes of bringing the Messiah". Most move there to either join family or escape racial prejudice at home. Tens of thousands of Jews have left France to go to Israel in the last 15 years because of antisemitic attacks and threats.

Sorry you think it was "dumb" for Jews to have a homeland after 6 million were exterminated. You acknowledge Jews need a place where they feel safe - where would you suggest that could be?

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@etmoietmoietmoi the irony is that Israel has never been a safe place for Jews. There has been fighting on and off for decades. I’m actually amazed that people feel comfortable setting up homes and raising families in a country where safe rooms are needed and sirens are part of every day life. Yes you can argue that the land belonged to the Jews originally but who would want to live in a war zone just because there is a biblical connection?

OhHelloTheres · 14/10/2023 18:02

@headstone
"The state of Israel should be immediately brought to America where their friends are and there is plenty of space. They could clear out UTAH maybe and create Zion there. No more blood shed."

What the actual fuck? What are you even on? Zion is a specific area, first of all. And do you know how many times, as a Jew, I've been told to "go to Florida, there are enough of you there already anyway. No one else wants you"? It's anti-semitic to say that. Not anti-zionist. Anti-semitic. So maybe be a lot more careful with what you say - you're making yourself look both uneducated and racist.

Question - I buy a few houses from a very rich landlord who lives in another country. I buy them for me and my relatives. He sells it all to me but with tenants (some pay rent, some are squatters) but they've all lived there a long time. What should I do? Just accept that I'll never be able to live in any of the houses that I purchased, or do I have a right to evict them?

Dedsec2023 · 14/10/2023 18:03

bendmeoverbackwards · 14/10/2023 18:02

@etmoietmoietmoi the irony is that Israel has never been a safe place for Jews. There has been fighting on and off for decades. I’m actually amazed that people feel comfortable setting up homes and raising families in a country where safe rooms are needed and sirens are part of every day life. Yes you can argue that the land belonged to the Jews originally but who would want to live in a war zone just because there is a biblical connection?

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it was pritty much as soon as the state was created by the un, that civil war started

Maireas · 14/10/2023 18:06

coffeeaddict77 · 14/10/2023 17:37

Given the US seem to support Isreal and there are a lot of Jewish people there they could consider offering Isreal some land though.

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Yes, but sadly, there's a lot of antisemitism in the USA, too.

Noicant · 14/10/2023 18:08

It’s quite interesting, I posed the question of when people were referring to the “Israeli occupation” whether they meant the west bank or just Israel being there as an entity at all. Not many takers on that one.

It makes it difficult to understand what people want. No Palestinians or No Israelis is not going to happen, it’s a ridiculous suggestion and the enforcement of such an idea would be ethnic cleansing.

I hope one day there will be a 2 state solution and people can just live in peace, not in fear and not in hate.

Pollyputhekettleon · 14/10/2023 18:08

bendmeoverbackwards · 14/10/2023 18:02

@etmoietmoietmoi the irony is that Israel has never been a safe place for Jews. There has been fighting on and off for decades. I’m actually amazed that people feel comfortable setting up homes and raising families in a country where safe rooms are needed and sirens are part of every day life. Yes you can argue that the land belonged to the Jews originally but who would want to live in a war zone just because there is a biblical connection?

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Some of them wanted to live there because they've always lived there, and were there before the Islamic conquest. Pretty normal.

Pollyputhekettleon · 14/10/2023 18:10

Dedsec2023 · 14/10/2023 18:03

it was pritty much as soon as the state was created by the un, that civil war started

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The conflict didn't start then, it long predated it and that's one of the reasons the British proposed to create two states out of the Mandate territory. The Jews had been dhimmis, second class citizens, for centuries, since the Islamic conquest.

Maireas · 14/10/2023 18:12

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Calling Palestinians "animals" is vile.
The Mormons were driven out of about three states because of intolerant and bigoted Americans. No other white Americans wanted Utah.
They made a desert bloom.