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I understand why they are so set on destroying Hamas

632 replies

FebruaryOnMyMind · 12/10/2023 14:10

Having seen the stories of the women and girls raped at the festival (reportedly over their dead friends bodies) and the people taken off as hostage; I understand why Israel want to destroy Hamas. They have said that Hamas militants are dead men. They have said that they will go after them. The worst killing of Jewish people since the Holocaust and their 9/11 with death toll of over 1300 people.

The story of the women at the Music and Peace festival is here -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623023/Israeli-girls-raped-friends-bodies-Hamas-terrorists-carried-second-Holocaust-British-relatives-reveal-condemn-celebrated-atrocities-Gaza-Iran-London.html

Yet some people celebrated when the killings of Jewish people (they were from many different countries) at the festival was announced.

I feel sadness for everything going on in the middle east and for all the people who are innocent are are dying. Terrorists need to be stopped.

Hamas 'carried out a second Holocaust' in Israel British relatives say

Two British nationals, Noam Sagi and Sharon Lifschitz (pictured), spoke of how their elderly parents were torn from their beds and forcibly deported to Gaza by Hamas along with children

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623023/Israeli-girls-raped-friends-bodies-Hamas-terrorists-carried-second-Holocaust-British-relatives-reveal-condemn-celebrated-atrocities-Gaza-Iran-London.html

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emilysquest · 13/10/2023 14:50

@Pollyputhekettleon oh, I didn't mean to say that has been the norm under Islamic rule, far from it. I was just listening to an account of a specific caliphate from the eighth century (and I accept that it may not be accurate, although I do general trust this podcast with regard to historical facts) and musing about the difference between what they described and, say, modern Baghdad. And wondering where the changes and fractures came.

@SurprisedWithAHorse yes I agree. What they were referring to was that Jews and Christians could progress in society, be merchants, middle-class professionals etc. I guess that does not mean exactly equal rights. My overarching thought was really about "how did we get here?" i.e. the tragic and polarised situation we are seeing played out this very day, and wondering if it could have been different.

Pollyputhekettleon · 13/10/2023 15:10

emilysquest · 13/10/2023 14:50

@Pollyputhekettleon oh, I didn't mean to say that has been the norm under Islamic rule, far from it. I was just listening to an account of a specific caliphate from the eighth century (and I accept that it may not be accurate, although I do general trust this podcast with regard to historical facts) and musing about the difference between what they described and, say, modern Baghdad. And wondering where the changes and fractures came.

@SurprisedWithAHorse yes I agree. What they were referring to was that Jews and Christians could progress in society, be merchants, middle-class professionals etc. I guess that does not mean exactly equal rights. My overarching thought was really about "how did we get here?" i.e. the tragic and polarised situation we are seeing played out this very day, and wondering if it could have been different.

There are cycles in Islamic history between periods of more secularism and tolerance and periods of religious revival.

For example, look at the Fula jihads in west Africa:

'Hitherto Islam had been spread in western Africa essentially by merchants who, in order to secure their livelihood, chose to accommodate themselves and their religion within the pagan social and political framework that existed where they settled—which for the most part was only in the towns. But with the coming of the tariqa—of which the Qādiriyyah was one of the first and, until the Tijāniyyah began to advance in its tracks in the 19th century, certainly the foremost—western Africa began to experience the growth of organized groups of devout Muslims who were both specifically trained and morally compelled to work toward a true Islamic society. Moreover, if the people and their rulers remained irresponsive or hostile, it was the Muslims’ duty to preach the doctrine of conversion by force, through the jihad, divinely justified war or rebellion against rulers who were pagans or not true Muslims.'

Western Africa - Islamic Revolution, Western Sudan, Trade | Britannica

octaurpus · 13/10/2023 21:51

Crispedia Really interesting quote.

FebruaryOnMyMind · 13/10/2023 23:04

Pollyputhekettleon · 13/10/2023 09:44

Did you know that back in 1938, the British offered both sides a partition that involved giving the Jews about 500 square miles of the Mandate land while the Arabs could have the rest? The Arabs still rejected it. They were opposed in principle to giving the Jews (who had always lived there) any sovereignty over any land which had been conquered by Islam. They wouldn't tolerate people who had been dhimmis, second class citizens, for centuries, being allowed to have their own state on Islamic lands where they would be guaranteed to never be systematically oppressed by their neighbours again.

The ideology of Hamas is a supremacist ideology that was not invented recently, it's not the lashing out of an unfortunate oppressed minority, it's the opposite.

The Peel Commission Report of 1937 - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

This.
I hope that helps?

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FebruaryOnMyMind · 13/10/2023 23:11

DownNative · 13/10/2023 09:59

@AngryBird6122 said: "Hamas are not just full of evil terrorists (yes, what they have done is fucking vile) it's also full of everyday family men who have had enough."

This is incredibly naive and shows you don't really have an understanding of the terrorist ideology of Hamas. As @Pollyputhekettleon said, it's a supremacist ideology.

Let me introduce you to the reality of Hamas courtesy of the United Nations.

The UN states Hamas AND the Palestinian Authority use children as soldiers.

"Both the PA and Hamas routinely indoctrinate Palestinian children to aspire to martyrdom through armed confrontations with Israel. According to Palestinian Media Watch (PMW), “the PA operates a systematic and institutionalized policy and program to recruit child soldiers/terrorists.”

In its reports to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) on this issue, PMW accused the PA of indoctrinating Palestinian children to admire and emulate terrorists and noted that “The PA openly admits, that the child terrorists are not acting in a vacuum, but rather they consider them to be the PA’s soldiers who the PA has sent to carry out a mission.”
The United Nations below:

"PA television (TV) broadcast quizzes children on songs with “value and meanings” which PA considers expression of Palestinian “national identity.” One of the songs depicts Israel as the “enemy” and encourages armed attacks: “I'm coming with my rifle… I'm coming towards you, my enemy… with cleavers and knives.” (January 2021).

• Official PA TV children’s program commemorated cartoonist Naji al-Ala, by sharing several cartoons encouraging violence among children, including one where Fatima (Palestinian woman cartoon character) presents an AK47 to Handala (the Palestinian refugee cartoon character) and one of her handing rocks to children. (August 2020).

• Fatah Facebook page promotes child soldiers by sharing video of Jordanian boy in military uniform holding slingshot and rifle. He wants to “shoot Jews” who killed terrorist Omar Abu Laila (killed Israeli soldier, stole his weapon and shot to death Israeli father of 12). (February 2020).

• Hamas TV children’s program interviews young children dressed in military fatigues. One child says he wants to be an engineer when he grows up “so that I can blow up the Jews.” The child host responds “Keep waging Jihad…when you grow up you will wage resistance against the Jews…” (September 4, 2015).

More from the United Nations:

"In addition, PA and Hamas educational programs routinely portray terrorists as role models and incite children to violence. For example, every year Hamas runs summer camps in which it trains children in military tactics and weapons use.

Likewise, summer camps run by Fatah and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) teach children to venerate famous Palestinian martyrs like Abu Jihad, who was responsible for terror attacks in which 125 Israelis were killed.

Therefore, it is no surprise that Palestinian children perpetrate violent attacks against Israelis and participate in violent confrontations with the goal of harming Israeli soldiers and civilians."

There is absolutely NO doubt that Palestinian children ARE taught to hate Israelis. Even worse, they're TRAINED to murder Israelis!

The United Nations have provided in their report more evidence of Palestinian children being used to carry out violent acts.

The United Nations tell us all many Palestinian children express desires to become a Jihadist martyr.

Unfortunately, tragically and sadly these children and teenagers are not like our children due to the Gazan social fabric as asserted by NATO StratCom COE too.

"The 2019 report of the United Nations (UN) Commission of Inquiry on the March of Return border confrontations condemned Israel for using “lethal force against children who did not pose an imminent threat of death or serious injury to its soldiers.” The report then proceeded to list the names of 17 children, aged 11-17 who were killed during the confrontations.

However, at least nine of them were documented to be affiliated with terrorist groups. Many of these expressed a desire to die as martyrs and directly participated in violent incidents close to the security fence. For example:

• M. H. (16): Photos and videos show him at the front lines, sabotaging and breaching the fence. He also was a member of the tire burning unit whose job was to create a smokescreen to help rioters breach the fence and attack Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers.

• Y. A. N. (13): Member of known Hamas family whose father is senior member of Hamas’s al-Qassam Brigades. He was with a group of youth attempting to sabotage the border fence. Hamas Supreme Leader Ismail Haniyeh and Hamas Gaza leader Yahya Sinwar attended his funeral.

• I. S. (13): Son of senior Hamas terrorist who was documented throwing stones with a sling shot towards IDF soldiers. According to his mother, the day before his death, he said “I want to go to the [border] and to return as a martyr in the path of Allah.”

• W. S. K. (14): Fatah activist who was documented at the front line of the riots. A day before her death, she told her sister “Maybe this is the last time I have with you. I may return tomorrow as a martyr in the path of Allah.”

• H. J. (14): Participated in Friday border confrontations and told his mother “Allah willing, I’ll become a martyr [shahid] fighting in the path of Allah.”

• M. S. (15): Body was wrapped in Hamas flag at the funeral. According to a Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-linked non-governmental organization, he was shot at “approximately 20 meters from the barbed wire fence and 50 meters from the main fence.”

Outside of Gaza, Palestinian children also regularly engage in violent clashes with the Israeli army and perpetrate terror attacks against Israelis. Some recent examples include:

• 13-year-old Palestinian is shot and killed by Israeli soldiers in violent riots in which rioters threw stones at IDF troops and rolled boulders and burning tires into nearby road. A number of Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rock throwers, including soldiers Amit Ben Yigal and Ronen Lubarsky, 64 year-old Alexander Levlovitz and three-year-old A. B..

• 15-year-old Palestinian is killed in clashes with IDF troops during arrests in Al Furwar refugee camp near Hebron (May 2020).

• 17-year-old Palestinian stabs and injures 22-year-old Israeli (January 2020).
• Two teenage Palestinians stab and injure Israeli police officer near Old City of Jerusalem (August 2019).

• 16-year-old Palestinian hurling rocks at passing Israeli vehicles is shot dead by Israeli army (January 2019).

• 17-year-old Palestinian stabs to death 45-year-old Israeli Ari Fuld (September 2018).
UN Watch calls on the Human Rights Council as well as UN human rights officials, including High Commissioner Michelle Bachelet and Rapporteur Michael Lynk, to publicly condemn Palestinian recruitment of child soldiers."

When you're faced with the cold, hard reality that Hamas have trained children and teenagers so well they can kill you.....what do you do?

What is YOUR solution to the conflict?

The reality is this problem is part of Egypt's refusal to allow Palestinian civilians to enter Egypt via Rafah. Other neighbouring Arab States have had problems in the past with their territories then being used to attack Israel. That presents a security problem for them.

Unfortunately, terrorist organisations like Hamas like to ensconce themselves amongst the civilian population, recruit from the local Gazan population, teach them to hate Israelis, train even children to murder Israelis and so on.

The only option is to remove and destroy Hamas. This cannot be done without civilian and Israeli Defence Force personnel deaths alike.

After that, Israel and the West can set about de-Hamasifying Palestinian society in Gaza similar to what was done in West Germany post WW2.

Doing nothing isn't an option.

Let's NOT minimise* *Hamas' members in the way you just did with your naive comment they're "not just full of evil terrorists...also full of everyday family men who have had enough."

A MINORITY* of Gazans oppose Hamas and THAT minority *"full of everyday family men"!

Not the ones who joined Hamas which is a destructive cult.

Indeed. The rose tinted glasses in which some view the struggles of the terrorist. The ideology they believe in wants to irradicate Jewish people that's their stated aim.

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TheHorseOnSeventhAvenue · 14/10/2023 00:01

One thing that amazes me in all this is those saying it’s understandable or giving a why for the terrorist atrocities last week have no idea how racist and Islamophobia that is.

Why accept barbarity from Arabs and somehow justify it?

I would bet my bottom dollar that if a group of Ukrainian “militants” had gone into Russia and killed people attending a music festival, kidnapped and raped and killed babies and families there would have been utter condemnation.

Zelensky and the Ukrainian government would have rightly disowned them and they would have been arrested and tried.

Unfortunately Hamas are the governing force in Gaza but trying to justify the atrocities as years of abuse plays in to the hands of Arabs being barbaric in nature.

In the same way the BBC and other people refusing to call them terrorists and describing them as militants or Palestinian fighters does a huge disservice to the Palestinian cause.

The attacks on Israel were neither an act of war or of resistance- they were terrorist atrocities. What did Hamas hope to achieve?

Sadly I have friends who have always been extremely critical of the Israeli government and Netanyahu who are now questioning whether they have been wrong. They are now saying, in light of this, Israel’s approach was understandable.

Itllbefine6 · 14/10/2023 00:36

There's been some clearer explanation from the British government. They are committed to removing the terrorist Hamas government in Palestine and all expressions of support for Hamas are illegal. The Palestinians as a people, their flag, their land rights and borders are still recognised and are legitimate causes and support for them - including flying the Palestinian flag - is legal. Israel must not stoop to the level of a retributive massacre of Palestinians - the aim of military operations is to remove Hamas.

Lastchancechica · 14/10/2023 01:30

TheHorseOnSeventhAvenue · 14/10/2023 00:01

One thing that amazes me in all this is those saying it’s understandable or giving a why for the terrorist atrocities last week have no idea how racist and Islamophobia that is.

Why accept barbarity from Arabs and somehow justify it?

I would bet my bottom dollar that if a group of Ukrainian “militants” had gone into Russia and killed people attending a music festival, kidnapped and raped and killed babies and families there would have been utter condemnation.

Zelensky and the Ukrainian government would have rightly disowned them and they would have been arrested and tried.

Unfortunately Hamas are the governing force in Gaza but trying to justify the atrocities as years of abuse plays in to the hands of Arabs being barbaric in nature.

In the same way the BBC and other people refusing to call them terrorists and describing them as militants or Palestinian fighters does a huge disservice to the Palestinian cause.

The attacks on Israel were neither an act of war or of resistance- they were terrorist atrocities. What did Hamas hope to achieve?

Sadly I have friends who have always been extremely critical of the Israeli government and Netanyahu who are now questioning whether they have been wrong. They are now saying, in light of this, Israel’s approach was understandable.

I completely agree with you.

Meandermoanda · 14/10/2023 01:35

I understand why they want to stop Hamas

I don't understand why they are targeting the civilians of Gaza. Almost 2000 dead this week including more than 500 children. Palestinians have been unable to vote in an election since 2006. They did not choose this don't deserve this and collective punishment is a war crime.

Both sides are wrong and the innocents on both sides suffer.

It's all wrong.

Malvasylvestris · 14/10/2023 06:48

@Crispedia the best thing I have read on this topic on Mumsnet.

Seychal · 14/10/2023 07:54

About 100 miles south from Gaza one reaches the Gulf of Aqaba . This is where Eqypt, Israel and Saudi Arabia meet.

A few miles south into Saudi Arabia, some 200 miles south of Gaza, is already being constructed a $1,000,000,000,000 mega city and urban area called Neom. It will be 70 times the size of the Gaza Strip and house 2 million people by 2040 rising to 9 million on completion in 30 years time.

Neom

Elsewhere in the Middle East, there are huge infrastructure project underway.

It is a very abstract world.

firstfrm

NEOM: Made to Change

Discover NEOM: an opportunity of unprecedented scope for sustainable living, technological innovation and human progress.

https://www.neom.com/en-us

FebruaryOnMyMind · 14/10/2023 09:12

There are now 2 safe routes out.

The Israelis are searching for the hostages and have recovered some of their bodies. There are 120 left to find. Hopefully some will be alive.

If Israel can sweep the area for hamas terrorists. Although Hamas are telling people to ignore the move to safety, they would since they like using the innocents as shields.

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FebruaryOnMyMind · 14/10/2023 09:18

Two very brave Gaza men who live in Israel speak out today. Their 21 year old brother shot by Hamas. They hate Hamas and support Israel going into Gaza to clear Hamas terrorists. These men are Arabs that lived in peace with Jewish people in Israel. Sky news

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Finlesswonder · 14/10/2023 09:22

I don't believe most Palestinians don't support Hamas.

SurprisedWithAHorse · 14/10/2023 09:22

About a fifth of Israel's population are Arab Israelis, mostly descended from the Arabs who were living there when Israel was created and remained.

If it's an apartheid state, it's pretty shit at it.

EasterIssland · 14/10/2023 09:25

FebruaryOnMyMind · 14/10/2023 09:12

There are now 2 safe routes out.

The Israelis are searching for the hostages and have recovered some of their bodies. There are 120 left to find. Hopefully some will be alive.

If Israel can sweep the area for hamas terrorists. Although Hamas are telling people to ignore the move to safety, they would since they like using the innocents as shields.

Was this one of the safe routes ?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/70-palestinians-killed-200-injured-as-israel-strikes-convoy-of-displaced-people-in-gaza-interior-ministry/3019172

Poudretteite · 14/10/2023 09:26

Meandermoanda · 14/10/2023 01:35

I understand why they want to stop Hamas

I don't understand why they are targeting the civilians of Gaza. Almost 2000 dead this week including more than 500 children. Palestinians have been unable to vote in an election since 2006. They did not choose this don't deserve this and collective punishment is a war crime.

Both sides are wrong and the innocents on both sides suffer.

It's all wrong.

Edited

They aren't intentionally targeting civilians.

Hamas has told Palestinians to ignore the IDF and not evacuate. They hide weapons in hospitals and schools. They want maximum Israeli AND Palestinian deaths, because the deaths make Israel look like monsters on the global stage, and to increase humanitarian aid which they can steal.

Essentially they have given Israel no choices but either let themselves be murdered, or go on the attack with huge civilian collateral. From Hamas' POV either of those is a positive outcome.

Thisisworsethananticpated · 14/10/2023 09:27

Id go ao far as to say the ONLY thing I’ve read in the past week thats resonated and made sense

its been an upsetting week and reading people
argue online isn’t helping !

FebruaryOnMyMind · 14/10/2023 09:29

SurprisedWithAHorse · 14/10/2023 09:22

About a fifth of Israel's population are Arab Israelis, mostly descended from the Arabs who were living there when Israel was created and remained.

If it's an apartheid state, it's pretty shit at it.

Israel attempts to look forward for all living there. Arab and Jewish. The spend their lives attempting to improve the lives of people living there. They must defend themselves and this mass attack on several fronts, from 5000 missiles on the first night, hundreds of terrorists shooting people at a festival and in Kibbutz near the border, paragliding in to kill. They must stop this from happening again.

However, Hamas encourage hatred, they want to wipe every Israeli from the face of the earth. They would not live next to them. They spend aid on weapons not to improve the lives of their people. Completely different mindset. Teach children to hate and join up to kill.

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andtheworldrollson · 14/10/2023 09:36

It is not a defence , it is an attack. Defence would be targeted. Children would not be considered acceptable collateral damage

The people living in the occupied territories are not equal citizens to the Jews

Last Saturday's massacre was not the start of the violence, just another stage in a long running war.

andtheworldrollson · 14/10/2023 09:39

Why are hamas successful in encouraging hatred ?

Is every Palestinian a member of hamas ?

How do you think the current Isreal actions will discourage hatred ?

EasterIssland · 14/10/2023 13:35

Don’t worry @FebruaryOnMyMind no need to ignore my question. BBC has reported that the people killed on a convoy I was driving in one od the two routes that Israel had asked them use. So we kick you out of your house and as you’re leaving we kill you and shit happens. You shouldn’t have chosen to be born in Palestina. Your own fault

I understand why they are so set on destroying Hamas
EasterIssland · 14/10/2023 13:36

*that was driving