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To think its not okay to great gazans as israel has been

746 replies

LethargicButAwesome · 11/10/2023 21:46

Gaza has no food, no electricity and no water. On top of that they are being bombarded constantly
Israel has bombed the only escape route for refugees via Egypt, there is no way out
israel continues the blockage by air, land and sea - no aid can get in, no one can get out.
israel has said they will obliterate Gaza.

this is unprecedented, no matter what happens with governments or wars, you have refugee camps…safe havens…(often difficult) access to water - how are we even debating that this is acceptable? Am i the only person thinking this is the human race at its absolute worst? Its heartbreaking to watch, literally noone is doing anything - we are observing a genocide.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
65
flufferknutter · 14/10/2023 14:24

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/10/2023 10:30

The response is to commit crimes against humanity against international law. We should all condemn this. There are no excuses.

What would you suggest would be the correct Israeli response to the attacks?

Stepping up security and not being caught off guard and ignoring warnings - which they apparently received from Egypt several days before. They're supposed to have one of the best and most sophisticated intelligence outfits in the world (Mossad) aided by the USA so.....

DewinDwl · 14/10/2023 18:09

Is Netanyahu really not capable of coming up with an alternative solution?

Exactly. The way Israel has been acting the last few days actually shows its weakness and powerlessness. Lashing out bluntly, in anger, will only generate more violence. An eye for an eye hasn't worked and it won't work. What now? Where are the grown up politicians?

JSMill · 14/10/2023 19:49

DewinDwl · 14/10/2023 18:09

Is Netanyahu really not capable of coming up with an alternative solution?

Exactly. The way Israel has been acting the last few days actually shows its weakness and powerlessness. Lashing out bluntly, in anger, will only generate more violence. An eye for an eye hasn't worked and it won't work. What now? Where are the grown up politicians?

Sadly the world lacks great leaders. It's so depressing.

parakeet7 · 14/10/2023 21:01

Brumbies · 14/10/2023 09:17

Israel is the world’s only Jewish state, occupying a tiny percentage of the land mass of the Middle East And is surrounded by well-funded, hostile, state-sponsored terrorist groups which, as we have seen, are willing to replicate Nazi-era atrocities. Therefore this is no time to be calling for Israeli restraint. Israeli self-defence requires the total removal of Hamas from Gaza.

Absolutely correct. Only people who are not anti semitic get this.

ChickHenLittle · 14/10/2023 21:11

Plenty of Jews are against the actions of the Israeli government, are they anti-semitic? I don't give a damn what religion they are, never have. Their actions, as human beings, are barbaric.
Saying anyone criticising the siege and killing of civilians is anti-semitic is a disingenuous way of getting people to shut up.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 08:58

Coughingdodger · 12/10/2023 14:42

I agree @worddance
And I’m not sure why this poster keeps going on and on about Ireland in all the threads about Israel/Palestine.

Since far too many people in various threads have tried to compare the Northern Ireland Troubles with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I have had to deconstruct those false equivalence arguments.

And I will continue to do that so long as someone persists in doing it.

The two are NOT equivalent conflicts and it's important to remind people that PSF/PIRA have long regarded Hamas as fellow travellers, shall we say, @Coughingdodger?

Too many people don't understand either conflict. 🤷‍♂️

DownNative · 17/10/2023 09:11

flufferknutter · 14/10/2023 14:24

Stepping up security and not being caught off guard and ignoring warnings - which they apparently received from Egypt several days before. They're supposed to have one of the best and most sophisticated intelligence outfits in the world (Mossad) aided by the USA so.....

It's far from being as simple as you suggest!

What we know is that Egypt gave a warning of something that wasn't especially clear of the nature of potential attack:

"We (Egypt) have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047

And:

"We know that Egypt has warned the Israelis three days prior that an event like this could happen," Mr McCaul told reporters following a closed-door intelligence briefing on Wednesday for lawmakers about the Middle East crisis, according to AFP news agency.

"I don't want to get too much into classified, but a warning was given," the Texas Republican added. "I think the question was at what level."

So, the threat level really wasn't clear. Israeli security services receive a LOT of reports of threats, but many of them aren't immediate threats. The challenge is always sorting out actual threats from perceived threats.

Apply the expanded Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to bad intentions (e.g., malice or self-interest) that which is adequately explained by other causes (e.g., stupidity, ignorance, carelessness, incompetence, or lack of information)."

People commonly misunderstand the world of intelligence. Often, the assumption is that intelligence is always of high quality - wrong, it greatly varies from detailed information to very vague information. The other common assumption is that if an attack gets through, its deliberately allowed to happen which doesn't make much sense.

Often, contextual information is left out lest it undermine the conspiracy that intelligence allowed something to happen or to show they're incompetent. Other explanations exist such as incorrect information supplied, information not passed along the security chain, situations suddenly changed so intelligence agencies had to change plans last minute and many more possible explanations.

Intelligence and security failures can have multiple explanations as shown by the US enquiry into 9/11.

The following is an excellent point most people don't understand about intelligence:

"In fact, experts say the sheer quantity of intelligence that Israel collects on Hamas, as well as the group’s constant activity and organizing, may have played a role in obscuring plans for this particular attack amid the endless barrage of potentially credible threats."

And:

"“Intelligence in an environment like Israel isn't finding a needle in a haystack—it's finding the needle that will hurt you in a pile of needles,” Williams says. “Given the number of Hamas members involved in the invasion, it's not plausible to me that Israel missed every human intelligence reflection of the planning. But I feel confident that there are always Hamas operatives talking about credible plans to attack the IDF. So Israel can't respond with force to every threat, even every credible one. They'd be at a heightened state of alert or actively engaged all the time, and that's probably actually worse for security."

  • Jake Williams, a former US National Security Agency hacker and current faculty member at the Institute for Applied Network Security

"The question everyone’s asking is, what role did Iran play? We don’t know. Iran has clearly been a supporter of Hamas financially, materially and politically. But we don’t know the extent to which Iran was involved in the logistical operational part of this training, or what kind of logistical support (it offered the October 7 operation).

I don’t think anyone knows that. Every (country’s) intelligence was caught completely unaware of this, including and especially the Israelis."

• Khaled Elgindy, senior fellow at the DC-based Middle East Institute where he directs the program on Palestine and Israeli-Palestinian Affairs.

On top of that, see the attachment where Hamas boasts they fooled Israel and the West into thinking they were busy governing Gaza Strip.

The lesson learned here is that receiving too much intelligence on potential or actual threats is a security weakness and that intelligence services are NOT infallible although they are an important part of the national security apparatus.

To think its not okay to great gazans as israel has been
OhHelloTheres · 17/10/2023 09:20

Just as a bit of a side point - no one seems to ask themselves why it was specifically Egypt who warned Israel of an impending attack. The obvious reason for this is that either the attack was planned in Egypt by Hamas and their supporters, or Egypt also doesn't trust Hamas and therefore have spies in Gaza. Either way this will be a large contributing factor as to why Egypt don't want the border with Gaza to be opened - they need as much help keeping Hamas out as Israel do. They don't want to inherit the Palestinian problem - by which I don't mean Palestinians but rather the terrorists that live among them. Essentially, all Palestinians are being held hostage by Hamas as while terrorists live among them no one is going to want to help them.

It's an incredibly awful situation

ChickHenLittle · 17/10/2023 09:34

Now Iran has warned of imminent "preemptive action against Israel", apparently to happen within the next few hours to stop the ground invasion of Gaza.
Was it really too hard for world leaders to speak up against the siege and invasion and at least try to intervene? Still sitting back and letting it happen, as the region gets more and more unstable and the situation in Gaza gets worse and worse.

ChickHenLittle · 17/10/2023 09:38

"Convoys of lorries carrying emergency food water and medical supplies are waiting on the Egyptian side of the border with Gaza waiting for the crossing point at Rafah to open, while Palestinians with foreign citizenship wait on the other side to leave the enclave. Egypt controls the border but requires Israeli agreement on what and who is allowed to pass through it. The Rafah border post was hit by a blast attributed to an Israeli airstrike on Monday evening."

Apparently Biden's visit, controversial as it is, will involve persuading Netanyahu to let aid through, although another 2 days will involve many more deaths.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 09:47

ChickHenLittle · 17/10/2023 09:34

Now Iran has warned of imminent "preemptive action against Israel", apparently to happen within the next few hours to stop the ground invasion of Gaza.
Was it really too hard for world leaders to speak up against the siege and invasion and at least try to intervene? Still sitting back and letting it happen, as the region gets more and more unstable and the situation in Gaza gets worse and worse.

Iran has been warned by the US not to intervene and they've sent TWO aircraft carriers to the eastern Mediterranean. The RAF has a base in Cyprus.

Point here is, Iran backs and funds Hamas who attacked Israel unnecessarily. Israel has the right to respond. Do you seriously think Iran would do nothing if it was similarly attacked?

The West certainly didn't after 9/11. 7th October 2023 is Israel's 9/11.

As we've seen what happened when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, doing nothing isn't an option. The Hamas terrorist network must be dismantled and its membership decimated. There will be civilian deaths due to the way Hamas operates - see NATO StratCom COE 2019 report "Hamas' Use Of Human Shields In Gaza 2008-2014".

Factual/Legal causation and effect - had Hamas not attacked Israel, this wouldn't be happening right now. But they did.

To think its not okay to great gazans as israel has been
Ahfeckingfeckit · 17/10/2023 10:18

No, of course it isn’t. Tell them to move, but there’s no where to move to. No food, fuel, water - and now water borne diseases are the next big risk. Blame Hamas for the people ‘ not leaving’ when the UN have pointed out there’s no way a million people can move, keep bombing. Hundreds of Palestinians children being slaughtered to add to the number of dead Israeli kids.
The whole thing is appalling.

ChickHenLittle · 17/10/2023 10:19

Do you seriously think Iran would do nothing if it was similarly attacked?

I'm unsure where you got this from as I didn't insinuate I do believe so.

The West certainly didn't after 9/11. 7th October 2023 is Israel's 9/11.

The resulting war after 9/11 destabilised the Middle East further and essentially made terrorist groups stronger. The US and UK pulled troops out too early, and now Afghanistan is run by the Taliban, Iraq by Daesh.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 10:31

ChickHenLittle · 17/10/2023 10:19

Do you seriously think Iran would do nothing if it was similarly attacked?

I'm unsure where you got this from as I didn't insinuate I do believe so.

The West certainly didn't after 9/11. 7th October 2023 is Israel's 9/11.

The resulting war after 9/11 destabilised the Middle East further and essentially made terrorist groups stronger. The US and UK pulled troops out too early, and now Afghanistan is run by the Taliban, Iraq by Daesh.

It's the logical outworking of anyone's panicked logic when they hear Iran's latest statement.

At any rate, it really doesn't remove factual and legal cause & effect from Hamas in this current 2023 conflict. Its clear Hamas have greatly increased their effectiveness since 2021.

As for the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, you've only got a partial understanding of what happened there. As I explained in some detail in another post which I think is in a now deleted thread, the Americans successfully defeated ISIS and Taliban in the physical military sense.

What they didn't properly pursue was the ideology that underpins Taliban and ISIS. Failure to deal with terrorist ideology means they're likely come back sooner or later.

US intelligence sources have since admitted this and their failure to learn from British Army successes in Northern Ireland during Operation Banner.

Attached is a book I've been reading by US Army's Major David Rappone which largely still stands up today since being published in 2010.

What Israel is doing is destroying Hamas terrorist infrastructure before going in to decimate Hamas members. After that, the destruction of Islamic Jihad ideology in Gaza can begin similar to how Nazi ideology was ultimately destroyed in West Germany post-WW2.

Today, Irish Republican terrorist ideology is so undermined, discredited and in tatters that Provisional Sinn Féin attacks the ideology of New IRA. Ironically, the two ideologies are the same. 🤷‍♂️

To think its not okay to great gazans as israel has been
DownNative · 17/10/2023 10:34

Ahfeckingfeckit · 17/10/2023 10:18

No, of course it isn’t. Tell them to move, but there’s no where to move to. No food, fuel, water - and now water borne diseases are the next big risk. Blame Hamas for the people ‘ not leaving’ when the UN have pointed out there’s no way a million people can move, keep bombing. Hundreds of Palestinians children being slaughtered to add to the number of dead Israeli kids.
The whole thing is appalling.

No, Hamas put up road blocks to prevent civilians moving from North Gaza to South Gaza.

There's 100,000 civilians left in Gaza who have yet to move. Hamas have told civilians to ignore Israeli "propaganda" and to stay put in North Gaza.

If Hamas hadn't attacked Israel on 7th October 2023, none of this would be happening. The blame lies with Hamas.

MrsSkylerWhite · 17/10/2023 10:37

asterel · 12/10/2023 00:46
**
What’s happening in Israel and Gaza is terrible. But it’s not just “a few odd people”. Hamas is the Gazan government - they were voted in by the people

In 2007, I think? No election since then. The people of Gaza are living under dictators.

Beyondshock · 17/10/2023 10:45

If Hamas hadn't attacked Israel on 7th October 2023, none of this would be happening. The blame lies with Hamas.

Almost 300 Palestinian had been killed this year before October 7th. So when you say none of this would be happening…what do you mean? That Palestinians would still be killed, just not massacred?….still murdered…just not to this degree.

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 10:53

@DownNative

'After that, the destruction of Islamic Jihad ideology in Gaza can begin similar to how Nazi ideology was ultimately destroyed in West Germany post-WW2.'

I'm not aware of any country that has ever destroyed jihadist ideology though, and it's been 1400 years. So I don't think those are comparable.

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 10:54

MrsSkylerWhite · 17/10/2023 10:37

asterel · 12/10/2023 00:46
**
What’s happening in Israel and Gaza is terrible. But it’s not just “a few odd people”. Hamas is the Gazan government - they were voted in by the people

In 2007, I think? No election since then. The people of Gaza are living under dictators.

On several of these threads people have posted many opinion polls showing that many, if not most, Gazans support either Hamas or other similar groups in the area.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 11:04

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 10:53

@DownNative

'After that, the destruction of Islamic Jihad ideology in Gaza can begin similar to how Nazi ideology was ultimately destroyed in West Germany post-WW2.'

I'm not aware of any country that has ever destroyed jihadist ideology though, and it's been 1400 years. So I don't think those are comparable.

As a terrorist ideology, Islamic Jihad dates back to the late 1960s onwards. It is not 1,400 years old.

Here's a decent primer:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/modern.html

Just as the origin of other modern conflicts isn't 800+ years old, so the Israeli-Palestinian conflict isn't centuries old as it dates back to the 20th Century.

The idea any conflict is centuries old is actually dangerous as it perpetuates a never ending cycle of violence.

As I said, Hamas' Islamic Jihad ideology can be destroyed in Gaza Strip. If successful, Israel can focus on the terrorist threat from Syria, Lebanon and Iran thereafter.

The Evolution Of Islamic Terrorism - An Overview | Target America | FRONTLINE | PBS

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/modern.html

ChickHenLittle · 17/10/2023 11:05

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 10:54

On several of these threads people have posted many opinion polls showing that many, if not most, Gazans support either Hamas or other similar groups in the area.

Even a quick search, only reading reputable sources, suggests that isn't the case.

MrsSkylerWhite · 17/10/2023 11:06

On several of these threads people have posted many opinion polls showing that many, if not most, Gazans support either Hamas or other similar groups in the area

A fresh election is the only “opinion poll” that matters. Gazans aren’t allowed one.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 11:12

Beyondshock · 17/10/2023 10:45

If Hamas hadn't attacked Israel on 7th October 2023, none of this would be happening. The blame lies with Hamas.

Almost 300 Palestinian had been killed this year before October 7th. So when you say none of this would be happening…what do you mean? That Palestinians would still be killed, just not massacred?….still murdered…just not to this degree.

I mean Gaza would not be bombed in order to destroy Hamas' terrorist infrastructure forcing Gazans to move south. There would not be an Israeli incursion.

Hamas fooled Israel, the international community and even you I to thinking it was happy to govern Gaza without attacking Israel.

Hamas has been using civilians to create confrontations with the Israel Defense Forces. A tactic I recognise from a past life. It explains Palestinian deaths.

DownNative · 17/10/2023 11:13

Attached.

To think its not okay to great gazans as israel has been