Page 33 | To expect my 11 year old to be able to use the toilet during the school day?

bendy75 · 2023-10-10T14:15:47+00:00

Is this the norm? My 11 year old started in at secondary school last month and has had two warnings (or stage 2 - Low level disruptions) for asking to use the toilet. I told him to try and go at break times but he tells me they are locked, confirmed today by staff when I asked, children who have a medical need can apply for a toilet pass but he does not, so has to try and go from 8.00 am until returning home around 3.00pm without using the toilet. AIBU to be shocked by this?

MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 22:53

crumblingschools · 12/10/2023 22:52

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia why are you saying that we see self harm as a conduct issue?

Because you think 15 year old girls are having sex in school toilets out of free choice and because they enjoy it.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 22:54

MrsHamlet · 12/10/2023 21:47

It's not about people using the wrong loo. It's about vaping, smoking, bullying, self harming, skiving....

why are you saying that we see self harm as a conduct issue?

That quoted post. You don't help a self-harming child by locking the loos.

Moglet4 · 12/10/2023 22:56

anon199900 · 12/10/2023 20:07

I might be missing the point of the thread but are toilets staffed in schools now?! And is this the norm in all schools?? I have never heard of that…

There’s usually a member of staff standing at the main door on toilet duty. It’s to stop kids misbehaving, bullying, sneaking phones, vaping and making sure that the queue keeps moving. This isn’t actually the main reason why kids aren’t allowed to go in lesson time though. It’s because it’s disruptive and not merely in the kid’s own class. Invariably, you get a number of kids who need the toilet in every lesson and feel the need to look through every classroom door en route, making faces through them, whooping down the corridor etc. Yes, it spoils it for the sensible ones but at least 4-5 lessons aren’t being disturbed by every naughty in the school every time they want to go and piss about!

crumblingschools · 12/10/2023 22:56

Schools are trying to reduce self harming in the toilets

Nikee20 · 12/10/2023 22:57

I can believe the toilets are locked at break.
All it takes the the member of staff who is on duty there to be off sick and it all goes wrong.
I think I’d be requesting a pass for DC if I was you.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 22:57

I'm seeing parallels between how mental health care staff lose sight of their patients' humanity and some of the things that the teachers on this thread are saying.

It's a sign of burnout in the staff.

MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 23:00

Nikee20 · 12/10/2023 22:57

I can believe the toilets are locked at break.
All it takes the the member of staff who is on duty there to be off sick and it all goes wrong.
I think I’d be requesting a pass for DC if I was you.

The thing is though, every child has a legitimate need to use the toilet when necessary. It's awful that the child of a pushy parent should be able to get a toilet pass when a child who is neglected by their parents can't, even though the neglected child might be the one with heavy periods or what have you.

It just makes toilet access into yet another thing that divides the haves from the have nots.

T1Dmama · 12/10/2023 23:01

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 22:33

Things we can actually do.

Long game: Land value tax. Use the money to build bag scanners at the school entrance, checking for knives and phones. That's a long-term goal, but it would prevent stabbings as well as rapes being filmed, so worth pushing for.

Immediately, you roll out true single-sex loos. It's impossible to film a rape that doesn't happen. Most sexual assailants are male and most victims female. Keep the perpetrator sex away from the majority of their preferred victims when said victims need to be naked from the waist down. To protect the boys, target supervisory staffing to the boys' loos.

Band loos by age range, even if you can only manage 7-9 and 10-U6. That stops the near-adults from bashing up the kids who were at primary last year.

Stop putting kids in isolation for having wrong colour socks and stupid shit like that. Enforce strictly the rules about violent and abusive behaviour but repeal the rules that are basically cosmetic.

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Loos are separate for boys and girls….
I’ve never heard of schools having shared loos that supervised by teachers..
Bag scanners at the gates? A good idea in principle, but not an immediate solution

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 23:02

crumblingschools · 12/10/2023 22:56

Schools are trying to reduce self harming in the toilets

The kid goes home and cuts, goes to the park and cuts, goes around the back of the bus shelter and cuts.

You don't help the kid by locking the loos. I remember self-harming at work in the loos. If someone had locked the loos, I'd have gone into a -25C freezer and self-harmed in there instead.

You help the kid with a CAMHS referral and on-premises pastoral support. If the money isn't there for the on-prem support, locking the loos won't take its place.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 23:03

MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 23:00

The thing is though, every child has a legitimate need to use the toilet when necessary. It's awful that the child of a pushy parent should be able to get a toilet pass when a child who is neglected by their parents can't, even though the neglected child might be the one with heavy periods or what have you.

It just makes toilet access into yet another thing that divides the haves from the have nots.

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For a value of "have" that means "has parents who will advocate for them".

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 23:04

T1Dmama · 12/10/2023 23:01

Loos are separate for boys and girls….
I’ve never heard of schools having shared loos that supervised by teachers..
Bag scanners at the gates? A good idea in principle, but not an immediate solution

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Scotland has mixed loos because Sturgeon and her govt are misogynists whose betrayal of girls will never be forgotten.

Nikee20 · 12/10/2023 23:05

@MargotBamborough I am well aware of this having worked in a school for 20+ years.
If this is the schools policy what else can parents do? I understand how hard it can be to get SLT to back down on ridiculous rules like this as well!
I didn’t say it was right to lock the toilets. I understand why people would apply for a pass.

LiverpoolLegalEagle · 12/10/2023 23:12

Sorry, don’t believe you - toilets locked all day as well as breaks????

But cannot think of why you would be leading us on.

MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 23:35

Nikee20 · 12/10/2023 23:05

@MargotBamborough I am well aware of this having worked in a school for 20+ years.
If this is the schools policy what else can parents do? I understand how hard it can be to get SLT to back down on ridiculous rules like this as well!
I didn’t say it was right to lock the toilets. I understand why people would apply for a pass.

I'm not criticising, if I had a child in this school I would be that pushy parent and make sure they got a toilet pass too! Unfortunately the squeaky wheel gets the oil. But being allowed to use the toilet shouldn't be a privilege, it should be a right everyone has equally.

T1Dmama · 12/10/2023 23:41

I believe there have been huge protests in some schools by students regarding toilets being locked

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 13/10/2023 00:06

T1Dmama · 12/10/2023 23:41

I believe there have been huge protests in some schools by students regarding toilets being locked

Good for the students.

If a student bunks off class, they hurt themselves by missing education. Smart kids know this and will only ask for the loo if they really need it.

ThrallsWife · 13/10/2023 06:25

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 13/10/2023 00:06

Good for the students.

If a student bunks off class, they hurt themselves by missing education. Smart kids know this and will only ask for the loo if they really need it.

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They also hurt the teacher and the school.

Regular truancy leads to huge a fall in grades. Teachers have ridiculous enough targets as it is ("all making above average progress" being one) and will be denied a pay rise because some kids think it's okay to bunk off lessons.

Even a small decline in progress across the school can be seen as them failing the kids and therefore getting a lower Ofsted grading. Which, in turn, means fewer students, less money, fewer resources, fewer staff.

If you think it's an isolated one or two who hide in toilets you're deluding yourself.

MrsHamlet · 13/10/2023 07:00

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 22:04

The fact you list a symptom of serious mental illness alongside poor conduct behaviours as if it was just another example of poor conduct tells me everything I need to know about what you think of the children in your "care".

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Does it?

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

MrsHamlet · 13/10/2023 07:01

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 22:09

If my school could ban personal stereos, yours can ban cellphones.

We didn't have cellphones when I was at school, not widely used then, and we managed to get to school and back without getting lost.

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They are banned. Do you now expect us to search them?

MrsHamlet · 13/10/2023 07:04

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 12/10/2023 22:54

why are you saying that we see self harm as a conduct issue?

That quoted post. You don't help a self-harming child by locking the loos.

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We don't lock our toilets so please stop trying to use my post to catch me and others out.

Nikee20 · 13/10/2023 07:25

@MargotBamborough I completely agree. Unfortunately the few who wreck the toilets, vape etc spoil it for the majority who behave themselves.

Unless they are staffed full time it’s impossible to police and no one can afford to pay a full time member of staff to sit at the toilets.
I would be getting my child a pass….they might rethink the policy of everyone has a pass!

Nikee20 · 13/10/2023 07:32

*if

LalaPaloosa · 13/10/2023 07:32

This is insane. Any child or adult should be permitted to use the toilet any time they need to. I am having trouble getting my head around such a policy. You are not being unreasonable at all.

Mepeepants · 13/10/2023 07:48

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia I think that the inexperienced 15 year old girls won't really be expecting it to hurt and won't be aware that foreplay will make you more accommodating. Plus it will only hurt if the 15 year old boy hasn't got a tiny todger. Girls can be just as desperate as boys to lose their virginity. I am not down playing actual cases of rape. Just saying that girls do consent. Boys are also coerced into having sex.

Morgysmum · 13/10/2023 08:07

towriteyoumustlive · 10/10/2023 17:13

OMG this debate does my head in.

I teach in a secondary school.

The pupils can NOT go to the toilet in the lesson (except anyone with a medical condition or at the discretion of the teacher for girls on their period). This is due to damage done to the toilets during lessons.

They can go before school, before P1, before P2, break time, before P3, before P4, lunch time, before P5 and after P5. That's NINE opportunities to pee.

There are ample opportunities to pee during the day. Far more than teachers get, as we only have the option of before the school day, break, lunch and after school.

A child age 8+ should be able to properly manage their bladder. You do NOT need a full bladder to be able to pee. You just need to relax the muscles and empty the bladder, which children learn from age 2 onwards.

You would not believe the verbal abuse I get from children demanding (not asking) to go to the toilet. One girl even turned up 8 minutes late this week, then 15 minutes later said she was going to the toilet, and called me a "fucking bitch" when I said no, told me I was denying her of her human rights, and apparently her dad is going to come and smash my face in.

And you wonder why so many people are dropping out of teaching...

I've been teaching 11 years, and only ONCE have I ever left a lesson to go pee, and to be fair I was 30 weeks pregnant with twins!

Edited

Does your school have a time limit, to get from one lesson to another?
I only ask as my sons secondary did, it was 5 minutes, which OK when classes were on the same floor, but sometimes he had to go from the ground floor to the 3rd floor. 4 stets of stairs, then to class, but not every floor had toilets. If you were late to class, you got a warning, 3 warnings then detention. Which he never wanted, so did what he could to avoid, (not drinking) So when he was in year 7 just started, he would get to class then go, dang I need to pee. They got more time at dinner, but then you would get a whole year group, needing to use the toilets, about 1000 kids, in a 30 minute window. To eat drink and pee.
I did encourage him to go before class started in the morning, as he had a 30 minute walk to get to school.