School overreacted ?

[JimmyJam2019]

Child is barely 7, had full weight for school racism policy applied to them for calling an 11yo a poo. On the playground daring each other to call the big kids rude words. Older kid reported child for racist comment, can school not use some common sense, the kid is 7 and has no clue about racism.

He wasn't excluded. Op says he was "isolated" from his classmates, which, as this is primary school, I imagine means he wasn't allowed to play with his partners in crime at breaktimes.
Not that he spent two days alone in the Chokey.

@Vivi0 Because we have a responsibility to educate our children.

What was worrying was a group of 6 year olds daring each other to call the older boys rude names which is what the original poster said. The original post didn’t say that they were all saying ‘poo’.

He wasn't excluded from the class room at all let alone for two days as far as the OP has told anyone. And that wouldn't be appropriate. He was in isolation. Which likely means lunch or play breaks. But children need to learn how hurtful their words can be to other minorities.

It's not for me to comment on appropriate punishment for children who's words and actions have been seen as racist, by the child they were aimed at. I've been subjected to racism all my life. And in turn my children have. Many people don't realise they are doing it. Ignorance is bliss.

This is incredibly OTT. Yes kids should be taught about racism but I very much doubt most 6/7 year old, even if they have been told all about the prejudices other races suffer and Rosa Parks etc, would make the mental connection that calling a black kid 'poo' could be seen as racist.

My DN is also (just) 7 and goes to a very multicultural inner city school. His class is majority ethnic minority and he has friends whose heritage is Jamaican, Somali, Pakistani and Indian as well as various Eastern European countries. He himself is half traveller! My sister has had quite a few conversations about race, religion etc with him to make sure that he doesn't inadvertently say something offensive and understands, but guess what? At his recent birthday party the kids were all running around, getting overexcited and winding each other up as kids of that age often do (yes, even the ones who seem 'mature' and intelligent in any other setting...) calling each other poohead, bumface, silly willy etc etc. No differentiation between the races of those shouting the names and those on the receiving end. I get why teachers need to discipline such behaviour in a school setting but calling it racism? And such a harsh punishment? Really??

BTW for those PP who seem convinced that the OP's DS must have previous form of some sort, this doesn't sound to me like the kind of school who wouldn't raise that if it were true!

She said he was “isolated from his class for two days” which I took to mean excluded from the classroom. I guess we won’t know exactly what it was unless OP comes back to explain.

But even two days with no breaks seems excessive.

My DS told another child he couldn’t join in a game because he had black skin - obviously completely unacceptable. He had to go to the HT who explained quite clearly why it was such a bad thing to say and how important it was it never happened again and that was the end of it as far as the school was concerned (obviously I had some conversations with him at home!). And our school is known to be quite strict. I can’t see that a more severe punishment for a single incident of unintentional racism serves any useful purpose. At that age the important thing is that they have an appreciation of what racism is and the significance and consequences of the words they use - the conversation is much more valuable than a punishment.

Yet another patronising response.

I assume most parents educate their children about such matters at the times they feel is appropriate or see it is necessary. My son’s school friends include children from Black and Asian backgrounds. I have developed great friendships with the parents of his friends and we spend lots of time together with or without the children. There have been no issues with racism, my son has never mentioned anything about skin colour, in fact, the only issues that we have ever had to deal with is far too much playfighting amongst the boys and football rivalry (my son didn’t even like football until he started school - he just wants to fit in with his friends). I am certainly not going to instigate conversations about race with my son and create issues that so far don’t exist within his friendship group. They are all great kids and my son is lucky to have such great friends.

My son is 6. If I don’t start teaching my son about racism by time he is 7 you said you would judge me as a parent. I don’t feel like it is my place to start discussing the skin colour of his friends without it being necessary. I am sure he has noticed, but as he has never mentioned it to me, I assume it is of no relevance to him. What is wrong with that?

Completely agree with @BandicootCrash . Small children tend to be colour blind unless they have been taught about racism or exposed to it. At age 7 I would have noticed another child looking different to me, I would have been aware that their ethnic origins were from a different land but I would not have considered them lesser or greater than me anymore than I would have a child with a different accent or different eye colour. As I got older I became aware that one of my parents was a racist and said some quite horrific things about people of colour but I don't think I was aware until quite a bit older. However the 80s were a different time, children were less sophisticated then.

I made an earlier point that I didn't think the poo comment was intentionally racist (though should still be punished).

My separate point was that a 7 yo should have some understanding of racism.

@Vivi0 "If I don’t start teaching my son about racism by time he is 7 you said you would judge me as a parent."

Yes, I would. Apart from anything else, I suspect that your many non white friends will already have had to have such conversations with their children.

I'm not sure why you thought my comment was patronising.

If your 6/7 year old does not know anything about racism they are in a very priviliged position. Many 6/7 years olds are the victims of racism and many of their peers are racist - whether knowingly or unknowingly.

If your child doesn't understand what racism is how will they understand what words they hear from others it's ok to copy? Do you tell your child about kindness or would you think it's ok for them to go and tell someone that they are fat? Would you think it's ok for them to tell a brown skinned person that they were dirty and needed to wash (a comment that I frequently heard at age 7 from other children, by the way)? Does your child understand the difference between these 2 (both unkind) remarks?

My child has no peers who aren't white. I will certainly teach them about racism when the subject comes up but I don't know why I would when they're so young and it's not something that's come up yet.

I used to be called chocolate face in primary and an acquaintance of mine was called shit face. We are both non white and it was definitely meant in a racist way. I'd also say it's fairly common to compares non white faces to poo. I mean it's a common racist taunt.

It's also ever toddler's favourite word. My own kids use poo head and its variations fairly often and I can totally imagine that your child didn't mean anything racist by it.

However, looking at it from the point of view of the child who got called poo, did they know it wasn't meant in a racist way? Did they know they were not the only child targeted with this stupid game? (And you do need to agree that it is a silly game and very likely to get someone in trouble or cause offense). Have they experienced racist abuse and are therefore more likely to interpret the situation in that way? All these questions don't mean your son is racist but it means that when something like this happens the school needs to do something and I suppose they need to be seen to do something. If this child is used to racist remarks then just dismissing this incident would obviously hurt them even more.

However, it's difficult to say this is the best way to deal with this. Ideally the school would have taken the trouble to explain to the kids why their game was so silly and why being called names that are innocuous in one situation can be much more offensive in another. Ideally they'd have punished all the kids involved but I assume they might not even know who all the other kids are. They know your son was involved because someone complained so they had to do something about your son and they had to show that they are aware of the possible racial angle here and that this word might have hurt this kid in a way that it wouldn't hurt a white kid. And they have to show that racism isn't acceptable and kids need to be aware of this. I'm not saying they handled it correctly or that your son's punishment isn't over the top but it's also not as simple as saying it's just an unfortunate coincidence that your son picked a non white kid and therefore the school should just ignore this.

@MankyMinge kids are not colour blind. Research has shown that even very young kids absolutely do understand who looks similar to them and who doesn't and more importantly, who looks like the majority and who doesn't. And kids do favour (or respect more) the ones that they see as being part of the dominant group.

Quite eye opening this thread.

Think I'm going to advise my 6 year old to call people twats instead as poo might be perceived as racist and they'll get a lighter punishment.

Why not teach him not to yell insults of any description? Radical, I know...

I think @NoWinterYear has explained it really well. It is a complex issue. The boy might not have intended the name in a racist way at all but the other boy perceived it that way. That could be of how other people have treated him and what's been said to him before.

The school had to act. But I don't think 2 day's isolation is appropriate.

Your thinly veiled "I have some friends who aren't white and so I'm not racist" is very telling.

She's a she and it was a joke. Radical I know ... 🤷🏼‍♀️.

Also, a child that hasn't called another child something along the lines of "poo head" at one time or another is a rare find indeed.

Completely different. The word 'monkey' is most definitely racist. The word 'poo' is children being children, with no racist connotations whatsoever.

Your comment, and the one calling my son “very privileged” is the reason why I don’t usually engage on threads like this.

All I did was share my son’s experience of having friends from non white backgrounds, and stating that no racism exists within his friendship group. You’d think that would be a positive thing.

You see my son has never picked up on racism because I’m not racist, nor is his father or our families. None of the other white families are racists either. But you have tried to infer that I am in fact racist because I have stated that I have friends from Black and Asian backgrounds.

All you do is shut down discussion. And I know you don’t see it, but people like you are a massive part of the problem.

But why is it that you would judge me?

I have stated that I, as a white person who has never experienced racism, don’t feel it is my place to initiate conversations about racism with my son, who is a also white person who has never experienced racism, because I don’t want snippets of those conversations to make their way into his friendship group.

The feelings and experiences of my son’s friends trump my need to “educate” my child on matters that do not affect us. I will happily discuss racism with my son when those conversations start happening. But I will certainly not be the one to draw attention to skin colour and have the topic of racism led by my white son.

You would really judge me for that?

I'm just surprised it's never come up. Our school does various projects around black history month throughout October. My 5 year old has just done a project on Christopher Columbus and learned about how he brought many of the Taino people back to Spain as slaves. He once asked why the football players had gone on one knee. Do you not talk to your child about the world?

He's never experienced it himself but he should know so that if he sees it he understands why it's so wrong.

Just for information, this is from UNICEF. "Studies have shown that by age 5, children can show signs of racial bias, such as treating people from one racial group more favourably than the other. Ignoring or avoiding the topic isn’t protecting children, it’s leaving them exposed to bias that exists wherever we live."

@Bookish88 seriously? You think saying you are brown like poo is just a factual statement?even very young kids know that poo is not something beautiful or desirable (which is why they love the word so much because they know it's slightly naughty).

I assume you also think the child who heard this should feel neutral or happy about being compared to shit?

If someone said to a white child that their skin looks like snot would you think that's just a statement of fact and they should just accept it? And this knowing that the white child probably doesn't hear a lot how their skin is snot coloured..