To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

’I honestly believe this "conflict" is not about these "Palestinian" getting justice for their people.

‘I simply believe if they wanted peace, safety and prosperity for their people they would accept the existence of Israel and work towards growing a stable and prosperous independent state.

If they instead persist in saying "no" to every peace deal and outright saying their aim is to obliterate their neighbour’

Can i check who you mean when you say ‘they’? Do you mean all Palestinian people or the ones who support Hamas? Palestinians do not all feel like this. They don’t all want to kill all Israelis. Many will and many will support Hamas. But many ordinary Palestinians will also feel as powerless as many Israelis and will want an end to all this.

@KimberleyClark

He wasn't holding up his Hamas ID card Kimberley with a list of kills, but given that he was a Hamas terrorist involved in the actions of the day, let's not pretend he was one of the "nice ones".

He as a murdering terrorist. Who participated in, supported and relished in murdering innocent people - along with their other acts of depravity. She was an innocent young woman at a music festival.

@DuvetsAndDreams

By "they" I mean the people participating in the conflict. Hamas, and Hamas supporters.

Unfortunately, they call the shots right now. So while I am fully aware there are citizens who don't approve of this, and don't want it, it is their own leaders who are putting them into a situation of instability.

They need to be accountable.

All Palestinians are terrorists then…….

@KimberleyClark

Please don't be pathetic.

He was identified as a Hamas member.

The only person disputing that is you.

I stand corrected I was not aware of that.

I worded my post badly. He was identified as a Hamas terrorist, but the person speaking to me about it was trying to underplay that reality by calling it a "Palestinian's body". Which speaks to the bias of people trying to make out there is some equivalence between him and one of the victims.

Ah ok. Yes Hamas and their supporters. Some of your comments re they could stop this, they could have peace and prosperity etc, were feeling a bit victim-blaming of the ordinary people to me. Thanks for the clarification.

I really worry about what’s going to happen in the next few days. Sounds like Israel May pretty much obliterate Gaza. It’s such a small, densely populated area that civilian casualties are going to be enormous. Normal civilians on both sides are the main casualties here. The average Palestinian had nothing to do with the attacks on Israel, they don’t get to vote Hamas out, they can’t even flee

Well @DuvetsAndDreams I don't blame ordinary people. I blame their leaders almost entirely. They are living very nicely, likely in luxury and benefitting in every sense from perpetual conflict. They do nothing to actually help their people.

I don't even fully blame all the people, especially the young ones, who are radicalised into terror. I think they are groomed. I think they are vulnerable to being groomed.

But I just don't think people can be quite as clear but as they are on the moral responsibilities of Israel.

I would restrict freedom of movement to a group who outright said they wanted to kill my citizens. I would blockade them if weapons were being smuggled in from Syria and Iran. I would not just "hand" over plentiful fuel and other resources to a group who were using it for acts of terror.

I am a kind person, which is politically left wing, but I would still prioritise defending the innocent people within my borders.

I also think after many, many years of independent rule they have to take responsibility for resources and prospering. It's a similar picture in other extremist led areas under the Taliban etc. that the actual living circumstances is second to warmongering.

They can either focus on terrorism, or they can focus on repairing water infrastructure, growing some kind of economy, trading with neighbours, looking at potential employment. This is just sensible living - all countries have to be responsible for this and I don't see how that's compatible with their goal of destroying Israel.

I ask, really, that Hamas are not held up to completely different standards or cast as the hapless victims. They choose to do what they do. Their actual job is governanance

@VisaWoes It is worrying, with the government's promise of mighty vengeance. 66 children were killed just in the last major attack on Gaza, and I think they now will have no humanitarian aid or medicine to treat the injured. No media coverage so it's a blackout of what will go on there.

I have seen a post by a Palestinian woman saying over the next week they will be free or they will die. I hate to think what will happen.

@ketchup07070

It is worrying, with the government's promise of mighty vengeance. 66 children were killed just in the last major attack on Gaza, and I think they now will have no humanitarian aid or medicine to treat the injured. No media coverage so it's a blackout of what will go on there

Exactly, so I am left wondering what their gameplan was here.

They clearly knew there would be huge retaliation which would definitely end in senseless deaths of their own people. They clearly knew it would mean even worse living conditions - more obliterated infrastructure, less access to humanitarian aid, less food, less water. So they have done this and will presumably turn around and blame Israel.

I hate military conflict. I hated all the wars in the middle east. But there is also an an understanding that if you cross a border and massacre people that there will be retaliation, so it feels like they are accountable for the impact on innocents of their actions.

Did they do this just so they can turn around and say Israel has killed 66 children? Did they do this just because they wanted to? What benefit will they get from doing it that was worthy of the loss of life and tragic impact that will likely span into a long time period?

Israeli War Minister latest update:

”I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no fuel, no food, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.”

So many people trapped and waiting for death.

Egypt need to open their border asap to establish a corridor, regardless of their fears about Hamas using it. What's about to happen (and already has) is absolutely horrifying.

I cannot see that happening although it would save so many lives. I cannot see anyone bowing to Israel and it’s objectives, including many of those in the Gaza Strip even if they could cross the border, because it sets a precedent. What a horrific situation.

What is ironic is that your bias is so strong you can't even see any other viewpoint. Your belief that Israeli armies / military have never harmed anyone other than sending bombs with warnings demonstrates that. Your belief is therefore what? That any Palestinian who died chose death, hence you exonerate Israel of any wrong doing? Those children should have gotten out of the way if they wanted to live. You are brainwashed. To you, Israel is good, Palestine is evil and no one can in any way convince you otherwise.

I on the other hand feel for both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens. I am not on any side other than that of innocent victims. I think both militias and governments are corrupt and horrible in how they treat innocent citizens.

I clearly read and see less biased media than you do as I have seen many pro Israel stories in my media.

Is this what you all wanted ? Reading the majority of the posts on this thread, it would seem to be the case.

More innocent civilian deaths, does that make it alright, how many Palestinian woman and children must die too ?
There are no winners here, but to take revenge on an appalling terrorist attack by Hamas by doing exactly the same thing is a state sponsored terrorist attack on Gaza where the majority of innocent people cannot run for their lives. What makes the Israeli government any better ? Targeting innocent civilians is abhorrent which ever the side, I would be ashamed to have this in my name.
No one life is worth more than another.

Can you say more on the border situation

Was it closed recently and is anyone asking for it to be opened? What’s Egypt’s stance

There's a border crossing from Gaza to Egypt but you must have a permit to cross.

"Palestinians wishing to leave Gaza via Egypt must register with the local Palestinian authorities two to four weeks in advance. People may also apply directly to the Egyptian authorities, using the services of a private company. The procedures and decisions by both authorities lack transparency. Those that are approved exit through the Rafah Crossing, controlled by the Egyptian authorities, which operates from Sundays to Thursdays. The journey through the Sinai desert is often lengthy and includes multiple stops for checks by Egyptian security forces."

So currently Egypt only allow limited numbers through each day it is open. So the waiting list is months long. Maybe they will fully open it but guess that's up to Egypt? They may be under pressure from Israel not to do this as there could be a danger that Hamas terrorists escape and are then freer to launch more attacks?

It’s been open and closed at varying levels over the years. Essentially freedom of movement over the border is problematic for Egypt because:

1. Freedom of movement for Hamas extremists poses a threat to the Egyptian public
2. Potential consequences within the country of allowing Iranian backed organisations through
3. There’s 2 million people who have been trapped for decades, half of them children who have been oppressed since birth - there will be significant psychological and trauma responses once no longer trapped in the Gaza Strip, and many argue Egypt does not have the resources available to ensure the fallout from the dehumanisation and suffering is not devastating.

Not sure that Egypt would want to be giving asylum to Hamas terrorists either

IDK but isn't the other side of the border miles and miles of empty waterless desert not a safe refuge to tens/hundreds of thousands of refugees??

@saffronsoup

I think you are coming at it from a perspective so biased you can't see the wood for the trees. This "conflict" is made out to be enormously complex but it boils down to some key facts;

Who has a right to this land?
Arguments can be made for both. Hence it was decided they would share it. Irrespective of who people think owns what (arguments in which people usually completely dismiss the fact Jews also lost their land as irrelevant) it was done and dusted, in accordance with international law 75 years ago and bickering is pointless. People either want war, or peace, and the first step to peace is accepting the land will be divided and one of those spaces will be under Jewish rule.

Which group agrees to that?
One. Israel has been agreeing since 1936 when the first of five offers was made and even long before that was that all they wanted was their own self governed space in their homeland of the middle east. They are not demanding Palestine doesn't also have a space, they just want their own.

Which group doesn't agree to that?
Palestine. They have rejected every offer made and won't negotiate. They have outright said for decades now that they won't accept anything but the obliteration of Israel. The entire Arab league decided they would not accept a Jewish state in the middle east and they have warred and battled to overthrow it ever since.

Which group does terrible things
Both.

Which group has shown they are willing to STOP doing terrible things and make peace?
Only Israel. The other group were literally still committing terrorist acts all the way the camp david talks.

So at the end of the day "Israel's Bombs" cause damage, but they have stated they are willing to stop. They have stated they are willing to share. They have stated they are willing to stop the conflict and get on with living. If the other side won't do that - then what do you seriously expect them to do?

To you, Israel is good, Palestine is evil and no one can in any way convince you otherwise
I can't speak for @Truthisbetterthanlies but for me this is absolutely not true. To ME, peace deals are good. To ME the right to self determination for all people is good. To ME people who want to live in safety and equality within their own culture are entitled to that. To ME, an end to conflict is good. To ME, terrorism where innocent civilians are deliberately targeted is evil. To ME this has nothing to do with "who" is doing it and everything to do with "what" they are doing.

I on the other hand feel for both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens. I am not on any side other than that of innocent victims

I don't think I have ever met anyone who doesn't feel this way (aside from a few weirdos). That isn't mutually exclusive with thinking Hamas and Fatah have to go to the negotiating table, accept Israel at a nation state and make peace so those innocent people can have lives they deserve.

Over 450k + crossing have been recorded by the UN Jan 2023 - July 2023 between Egypt and Gaza.
The crossing is known to be difficult but you can read reports about the VIP lane which ensures smooth passage for those that have the money

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190611-egypt-company-launches-vip-travel-service-for-gaza-palestinians/

if you find the right corners of tik tok there are videos of rich Palestinans enjoying holidays in Egypt, Qatar and Dubai using this crossing. Meanwhile the ordinary people are kept in poverty. Gaza is incredibly unequal but some, no doubt with links to the regime in charge, are doing very well.