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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

1000 replies

theotherfossilsister · 07/10/2023 19:48

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

OP posts:
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44
DuvetsAndDreams · 09/10/2023 12:25

This from the BBC. What exactly did Hamas think the reaction would be?? How is this helping the Palestinian people? I am no expert but even I knew this would happen. What a damn waste of life everywhere. And this is just the start.

We need ceasefire on both sides now.

‘Israel's defence minister orders "complete siege" of Gaza Strip: "No electricity, no food, no fuel"
More than 500 people have died in Gaza, after Israel launched massive retaliatory air strikes’

Green777 · 09/10/2023 12:29

No this won’t matter even half as much unfortunately.

Green777 · 09/10/2023 12:34

@saffronsoup

the much greater number of Palestinian civilian deaths of women and children won’t matter half as much as the much fewer Israeli lives. The Israeli lives are more valuable to western countries. The uproar surrounding their deaths speaks volumes about how Palestinians are viewed to governments.

To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?
saffronsoup · 09/10/2023 12:43

Green777 · 09/10/2023 12:34

@saffronsoup

the much greater number of Palestinian civilian deaths of women and children won’t matter half as much as the much fewer Israeli lives. The Israeli lives are more valuable to western countries. The uproar surrounding their deaths speaks volumes about how Palestinians are viewed to governments.

This is unfortunately true in many places around the world. There are certain cultures, religions, ethnicities and nationalities that are seen as having far more value and worth as humans than others. Poor(er) and less powerful people are generally seen as disposable and as acceptable collateral damage unfortunately. And that is true of the Palestinians who have died ove rthe years and will die. Their lives are worthless to many and there is an indifference to their deaths. Even many on this thread are upset if you bring up Palestinians dying as to them the only people who matter in this decades long conflict are the Israeli's and within that population - Isreali Jews.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 12:49

@Desdemonadryeyes

Exactly why do Arabs hate Jews so much? I had a Persian boyfriend many years ago and I asked him and he couldn’t/wouldn’t even attempt to explain

Well I am both Arab and Jewish :) I can answer this question based on my opinion only, which is....

Traditionally, Islam did not demonise Jews much at all. They were almost not even that relevant. It was Christians whose teachings first propounded antisemitism for the basic reason that Jews would not accept Christ as the Messiah -so they were denounced, oppressed, exiled, enslaved or murdered. That antisemitism was almost completely religious and if you were a persecuted Jew, you could stop being persecuted by simple converting to Christianity (which many did). The with the age of enlightenment, the concept of race and ethnicity came along and Jews were seen as genetically different and antisemitism took a new turn.

I think antisemitism is cultural a bit like religion itself. Meaning people got certain ideas so ingrained into them through culture, history, media in a way certain beliefs almost become genetic. Something insane like 30% of British people in 2023 hold at least one antisemitic belief. Tropes are so old, woven into the psyche, so even now, you will find the least racist people will actually hold Jews to a completely different standard and be totally unaware they are doing it.

I also think a lot of work was put into antisemitism through modern history - the Nazis, obviously, who put massive amounts into stirring hate for Jews (including very widely across the middle east), but also The soviets. They put enormous amounts into anti-imperialist propaganda, casting Jews as the evil, rich, powerful enemy and therefore sowed antisemitism as the only prejudice which is held by both the left wing and the right wing.

But I think nationalism as an idea became a thing in the 19th century and in this time period certain religions or groups started to feel very strongly that their group should dominate. So this is the point where the idea of "alien" people took a stronghold. Jews were considered "alien" in Europe because they were from the middle east and they were considered "alien" in the middle east because they would not accept the religion almost everyone else had.

Moreover, there became the beginnings of the battle of traditional Islam against Western culture. This traditional Islamic authority who ruled purely on the basis they could use religion to dominate people, was under challenge from Western liberalism with completely different ideas like democracy, and the Jews provided a convenient scapegoat. During the 1908 Turkish revolution, the Young Turks installed new freedoms of religion and so there was an internal battle within the Ottoman empire of "new" and more liberal Islam (the revolutionaries) vs old / traditional Islam, and Muslim conservatives latched onto antisemitic propaganda, claiming that there was a secret Jewish plot to work with the revolutionaries and bring down Islam!

So remember at this time, Jews were living in the Middle East as Dhimmi - which meant they were typically segregated, made to wear special clothes, not able to marry Muslims and so on and so forth so obviously they had a very diminished status in the Arab world and that's now coupled with the propaganda that they are conspiring with the revolutionaries. And then lo and behold came the stirrings of zionism which appeared in the late 19th century - initially, mostly, with socialist style ideas of living like hippies in the desert and starting their own farms. These "dhimmi" (second class citizens) were talking about having their own country and equality and not just that - they were talking about an idyllic way of life (socialism) that was completely at odds with traditional Islam and those with power at the time.

Wow, that idea was not popular! So as they started to (completely legally) emigrate to what is now Israel and buy up land and start working it, there was friction right away. They had beef over land titles, grazing rights and so on and as the region became rife with antisemitic ideas - things got worse and worse. As we moved into the middle of the 20th century it was a really bad time for Jews in the Middle East and Europe. Antisemism was almost global. Hitler had spread his brand of antisemitism into the middle east and spent a lot of effort ensuring the media and so on what inundated with Jew hate.

The view of Jews as greedy, devious, and bent on world domination became bound up with the Arab critique of Zionism - as well as the Nazi ideas too. There were pogrums across the region over this time - Libya, Syria, Iraq and more as well as the crazy shit going on in Europe so for Jews, the concept of zionism went from ridiculous fantasy to "hmmm, maybe this is not a bad idea". And as their dreams of self determination and having a homeland where they could live with equal rights was a rosy thing for them, for the Arab world, the conspiratorial notion of the Jews as plotting to take over the world quickly developed.

Then we descended into WWII and in a lot of ways the Arab world became allies of the Axis powers because they hated Britain and their imperialist control over the middle east. They already, this early, hated liberal ideas like democracy or human rights. It was completely at odds with their conservative religious beliefs such as attitudes to women and so on so this all just built and built.

I think what also went on is that there is a kind of pissing contest element to traditional Islam that isn't "live and let live". It is far more "there is only one true religion" and this concept of basically killing anyone who wasn't a Muslim was a part of that, and when they saw the reality that Jews were being "given" their own country in a region Arabs believed to belong solely to Muslims and the "one true" religion, they were very angry about it and still are.

Hence a lot of effort is put into wiping them off the planet rather than just getting along. It runs contrary to the entire world view of traditional, theocratic Islamic rule. It raises a terror that power might be lost if women or young people become indoctrinated by the west and start thinking crazy shit like "I'd quite like to vote in an election please", so it's been aggressively fought. When Israel came into existence, it was to the complete rage of some Arab leaders who wanted no "non Islamic" country in the region and so they fought very hard to stop it.

This is a blow also to the toxic masculinity so inherent in religious extremists who believe women, Jews, Christians are "beneath" them. How fucking dare a woman talk back? How fucking dare a CHRISTIAN give OUR LAND to these filthy Jews? They have to account for their losses to a supposedly inferior people so they depict the Jews as weak protégées of a mightier power—the United States—a theme that can be heard now commonly from groups like the Taliban or Isis.

Now, of course, a lot of this definitely doesn't apply to ALL Muslims, of course it does not. But it applies I think quite generally to a lot of the more traditional and nationalist ones in the region. And for those more liberal / generous in nature it doesn't matter all that much for two reasons.

Firstly, Arab countries passed laws that discriminate not against Israelis or Zionists but against all Jews, simply for being Jews. That is more or less the situation across the middle east, so being liberal doesn't really come into it as much as the practical reality they have diminished status.

Secondly, while in Western countries, overt bigotry is scolded, ignored, or kept out of politics - in mainstream Arab culture extreme antisemitic ideas are openly promoted through schools, newspapers, television, popular culture, and official ideology. It’s hardly even controversial and is basically just treated as completely normal.

So here to are with I suppose, the perfect recipe for Jew hate. It has so many dimensions to it, but this is essentially why - IMHO - groups like Hamas care absolutely nothing for settling in to peace and finding security and prosperity for their people. Because this battle is about supremacy over liberalism and an invasion to a middle eastern region they want to entirely dominate politically, religiousness and culturally. They can, perhaps, accept in liberal countries that other religions quietly practice their faith - but the idea of a sovereign, recognised Jewish state is abhorrent to many groups in the area.

Also, and interesting point which I won't go into much because I have droned on long enough - is that a vast amount of Arabs are very prejudice against Palestinians! They often work with them against the common enemy of Jews, but there is massive prejudice against them.

Because many of them are not originally Palestinians at all. They are immigrants who came to Israel from all over the Arab world (particularly during the British Mandate) in order to find employment in the cities and on the farms the Jews had built. Irony huh!

These immigrants still have names designating where they originally come from. Like the Masti are Egyptian Palestinians or the Tzurani are from Lebanon), and to cut a very long story short there is jealousy going on. Those Arabs from poorer countries like Syria are pissed off that aid agencies provide them with food, medical care yada yada while their people starve. They see it as preferential treatment.

Hence weird stuff happened which doesn't add up entirely to the Arab world supporting Palestine - like Jordan annexing the west bank for 20 years. Or the fact that from the end of the 1948 Israeli War although the politics in the Arab world began to center on eliminating Israel, the Arab “refugees” were kept in camps, with explicit instructions from the Arab League that they be kept there and not absorbed into other Arab countries.

It was felt (and the full history is complicated) that a lot of Palestinian Arabs were getting rich off the refugee thing - for example selling food, medical supplies or creating "cities" and so on and it created a lot of bad blood. Likewise with certain leaders like Arafat getting very rich off international support and donations and this pissed a lot of people off. they have had simply billions donated - money most of these places will never see.

There is also beef between Arab nations with Iran - and at one point with Iraq. Some want a more chill life - to prosper, trade and have peace and others are more keen on war and perpetual bickering. It's a commonly held belief in the Arab world that the Palestinian leaderships don't want a "state of their own" because if that ever happens the gravy train of vast donations would disappear and they'd have to lose their palaces pretty sharpish. Of course while many citizens live in poverty in Palestinian territory, their leaders are extremely rich and live in luxury.

Also worth noting a bit of internal bickering over the fact that 20% of the Palestinian Arabs enjoy life in the only democracy in the Middle East, while the Arab countries sacrifice their soldiers’ blood to liberate “Palestine.” So some feel like they put life and limb at risk in wars for people who were basically on the side of the so called oppressor and wanted to stay living their liberal lives. On top of the worst kept secret in the region which is that Palestinian Arabs have been selling land to Jews for at least a century, profiting immensely from the deals, and then wailing to their Arab brethren to come and free “Palestine” from the “Zionist occupation.”

It's a bit convoluted but not a clear cut case of Arabs vs Jews. More a split of old fashioned antisemitism with modern political rivalry!

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 12:57

@DuvetsAndDreams

If you read my above post this puts context to why I honestly believe this "conflict" is not about these "Palestinian" getting justice for their people. I simply believe if they wanted peace, safety and prosperity for their people they would accept the existence of Israel and work towards growing a stable and prosperous independent state.

If they instead persist in saying "no" to every peace deal and outright saying their aim is to obliterate their neighbour then I think the ideas that their neighbour would give them freedom of movement of people, resources, weaponry or aid and assistance is crazy. It's a kind of political correctness gone bad.

I am one of the staunchest critics of the Israel government. In fact I had a "fuck Netenyahu" t-shirt especially made which I sleep in! But it doesn't change the fact that if you are continually perpetuating war and violence against your neighbour - you cannot simultaneously expect them to be nice to you.

I think people also forget that because Hamas don't stick to the rules of reasonable warfare (eg: using children or suicide bombs or targeting civilians) that it makes it close to impossible for Israel to be caring to it's citizens without putting their own at risk. As I mentioned earlier -how can you offer asylum to gays if Hamas terrorist cells are posing as gay to get citizenship in order to commit acts of murder to your people?

I think a level of fairness has to be applied where people see Hamas, and also the Palestinians who support them, begin to see they also have some accountability for themselves. If they wants blockades removed for example, then they have to demonstate a ceasefire. It can't all be a one way street!

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 09/10/2023 12:57

Green777 · 09/10/2023 12:34

@saffronsoup

the much greater number of Palestinian civilian deaths of women and children won’t matter half as much as the much fewer Israeli lives. The Israeli lives are more valuable to western countries. The uproar surrounding their deaths speaks volumes about how Palestinians are viewed to governments.

The relatively small number of Israeli deaths are more to do with their ability to defend themselves than due to Hamas' lack of effort to kill them. If it wasn't for things like the iron dome the Israeli death toll would be much higher.

I also don't understand why people try to use deaths statistics to prove a point. German casualties were much higher than British losses during ww2, does that make the Germans victims? No, because context is relevant.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 12:57

saffronsoup · 09/10/2023 12:19

You are asking would I rather see my children shot to death in front of me or watch them die slowly with their limbs blown off as they bleed out? Both sound horrific. No, I don't think that watching my family die from burning to death or suffocating in rubble or being blown to bits would in way way be better than watching them be shot and killed as they ran across a field.

In both cases, there is a desire to cause pain and suffering to as many innocent civilians as possible to show your power. Both are retaliating for perceived harms. Both see themselves as responding to the attacks of the other.

Edited

Thankfully most people take a dimmer view of war crimes than you appear to. And Hamas didn't just shoot teenagers at a pop concert as they ran acoss a field.

They also (TRIGGER WARNING) raped teenage girls in front of the bodies of their murdered friends and then executed them. They murdered a grandmother in her 80s in her apartment while videoing it and posted it onto her Facebook page so her grandaughter could find it there. They spat on the mangled, naked corpse of a raped tourist and videoed it and showed off about it.

These are the actions you think are morally equivalent to bombing a building you've already told the residents to leave well in advance.

NOT EQUIVALENT.

Desdemonadryeyes · 09/10/2023 12:58

Thank you @LemonyTicket

MarySmit · 09/10/2023 13:05

Have the posts here with trolls saying they support rape and murder of civilians been deleted? I hope so.

I'll say it again, using rape as a weapon of war, and murdering civilians, is never acceptable. Just because the victims are Israeli (and a significant number were foreign nationals, including US, German and British), does not make murder and rape acceptable.

snickersandmarsandbounty · 09/10/2023 13:06

So many innocent people being killed because of religion, megalomaniac men in power, fights over lands who have had borders drawn by other countries

Livinginanotherworld · 09/10/2023 13:07

BlurredEdges · 09/10/2023 08:32

You're excusing the rape murder and torture of young girls, elderly people with dementia, babies and children with their mothers, young people attending a music festival. Hundreds and hundreds of them slaughtered in one day. What the fuck.

@BlurredEdges you are putting words in @Green777 mouth, they didn’t say that, can’t you read ?

MMBaranova · 09/10/2023 13:08

If you missed it, this FT article about Mohammed Deif, who it alleges is 'the mastermind' is available.

https://t.co/ELgOYzdLxc

My source: spotting Rob Crilly posting it.

https://on.ft.com/3LRzg2u

https://t.co/ELgOYzdLxc

DownNative · 09/10/2023 13:10

Whereforartthoudave · 09/10/2023 12:10

The IDF and the Israeli intelligence services have been seriously embarrassed, on top of everything else. God knows how they allowed an attack on this scale happen.
They’ll take the cost out on civilians,
unfortunately.
Hamas can’t last much longer hopefully, then perhaps some common sense might be restored.

I'm not sure why you're stating things like "God knows how they allowed an attack on this scale happen".

That's not necessarily how it happened. Apply the expanded Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to bad intentions (e.g., malice or self-interest) that which is adequately explained by other causes (e.g., stupidity, ignorance, carelessness, incompetence, or lack of information)."

People commonly misunderstand the world of intelligence. Often, the assumption is that intelligence is always of high quality - wrong, it greatly varies from detailed information to very vague information. The other common assumption is that if an attack gets through, its deliberately allowed to happen which doesn't make much sense.

Often, contextual information is left out lest it undermine the conspiracy that intelligence allowed something to happen or to show they're incompetent. Other explanations exist such as incorrect information supplied, information not passed along the security chain, situations suddenly changed so intelligence agencies had to change plans last minute and many more possible explanations.

Intelligence and security failures can have multiple explanations as shown by the US enquiry into 9/11.

Report into US intelligence failures here:

oig.justice.gov/sites/default/files/archive/special/0506/chapter5.htm

It may provide insight into the Israeli failures. It doesn't mean its an automatic Israeli false flag or anything like that - that kind of conspiracy theory would need proper evidence, not speculation and speculation inevitably benefits terrorist groups as they seek to undermine public confidence in States' intelligence agencies.

“Intelligence in an environment like Israel isn't finding a needle in a haystack—it's finding the needle that will hurt you in a pile of needles,” Williams says. “Given the number of Hamas members involved in the invasion, it's not plausible to me that Israel missed every human intelligence reflection of the planning. But I feel confident that there are always Hamas operatives talking about credible plans to attack the IDF. So Israel can't respond with force to every threat, even every credible one. They'd be at a heightened state of alert or actively engaged all the time, and that's probably actually worse for security.”

  • Jake Williams, a former US National Security Agency hacker and current faculty member at the Institute for Applied Network Security

That is the reality of intelligence - how to decide which piece of intelligence is a credible, imminent threat?

There's other explanations for intelligence failures, but "allowing" them to happen isn't really one of them. That's conspiracy theory land.

MarySmit · 09/10/2023 13:10

I'll also say this again: there is no place for terrorist sympathisers in the UK. If you do not believe in democracy, the rule of law, free speech, and not inciting religious hatred, then please go to another country. There are places full of religious fanatics and terrorist sympathisers where you can go.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 13:10

saffronsoup · 09/10/2023 12:43

This is unfortunately true in many places around the world. There are certain cultures, religions, ethnicities and nationalities that are seen as having far more value and worth as humans than others. Poor(er) and less powerful people are generally seen as disposable and as acceptable collateral damage unfortunately. And that is true of the Palestinians who have died ove rthe years and will die. Their lives are worthless to many and there is an indifference to their deaths. Even many on this thread are upset if you bring up Palestinians dying as to them the only people who matter in this decades long conflict are the Israeli's and within that population - Isreali Jews.

That's your view and your view only.

The opposite of what actually happens, which is that almost no deaths of Jews are mentioned in mainstream western media - unless a Palestinian dies too, and then it can be mentioned. Even where the story is that a Palestinian murdered a Jew in cold blood, and was then shot to stop them as they tried to murder another Israeli, the story will say something like "Palestinian killed in Israeli attack".

The bias is flabbergasting.

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 13:13

MarySmit · 09/10/2023 13:10

I'll also say this again: there is no place for terrorist sympathisers in the UK. If you do not believe in democracy, the rule of law, free speech, and not inciting religious hatred, then please go to another country. There are places full of religious fanatics and terrorist sympathisers where you can go.

It's a little late for that. They have no intention of leaving and you're not going to make them.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 13:14

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 12:49

@Desdemonadryeyes

Exactly why do Arabs hate Jews so much? I had a Persian boyfriend many years ago and I asked him and he couldn’t/wouldn’t even attempt to explain

Well I am both Arab and Jewish :) I can answer this question based on my opinion only, which is....

Traditionally, Islam did not demonise Jews much at all. They were almost not even that relevant. It was Christians whose teachings first propounded antisemitism for the basic reason that Jews would not accept Christ as the Messiah -so they were denounced, oppressed, exiled, enslaved or murdered. That antisemitism was almost completely religious and if you were a persecuted Jew, you could stop being persecuted by simple converting to Christianity (which many did). The with the age of enlightenment, the concept of race and ethnicity came along and Jews were seen as genetically different and antisemitism took a new turn.

I think antisemitism is cultural a bit like religion itself. Meaning people got certain ideas so ingrained into them through culture, history, media in a way certain beliefs almost become genetic. Something insane like 30% of British people in 2023 hold at least one antisemitic belief. Tropes are so old, woven into the psyche, so even now, you will find the least racist people will actually hold Jews to a completely different standard and be totally unaware they are doing it.

I also think a lot of work was put into antisemitism through modern history - the Nazis, obviously, who put massive amounts into stirring hate for Jews (including very widely across the middle east), but also The soviets. They put enormous amounts into anti-imperialist propaganda, casting Jews as the evil, rich, powerful enemy and therefore sowed antisemitism as the only prejudice which is held by both the left wing and the right wing.

But I think nationalism as an idea became a thing in the 19th century and in this time period certain religions or groups started to feel very strongly that their group should dominate. So this is the point where the idea of "alien" people took a stronghold. Jews were considered "alien" in Europe because they were from the middle east and they were considered "alien" in the middle east because they would not accept the religion almost everyone else had.

Moreover, there became the beginnings of the battle of traditional Islam against Western culture. This traditional Islamic authority who ruled purely on the basis they could use religion to dominate people, was under challenge from Western liberalism with completely different ideas like democracy, and the Jews provided a convenient scapegoat. During the 1908 Turkish revolution, the Young Turks installed new freedoms of religion and so there was an internal battle within the Ottoman empire of "new" and more liberal Islam (the revolutionaries) vs old / traditional Islam, and Muslim conservatives latched onto antisemitic propaganda, claiming that there was a secret Jewish plot to work with the revolutionaries and bring down Islam!

So remember at this time, Jews were living in the Middle East as Dhimmi - which meant they were typically segregated, made to wear special clothes, not able to marry Muslims and so on and so forth so obviously they had a very diminished status in the Arab world and that's now coupled with the propaganda that they are conspiring with the revolutionaries. And then lo and behold came the stirrings of zionism which appeared in the late 19th century - initially, mostly, with socialist style ideas of living like hippies in the desert and starting their own farms. These "dhimmi" (second class citizens) were talking about having their own country and equality and not just that - they were talking about an idyllic way of life (socialism) that was completely at odds with traditional Islam and those with power at the time.

Wow, that idea was not popular! So as they started to (completely legally) emigrate to what is now Israel and buy up land and start working it, there was friction right away. They had beef over land titles, grazing rights and so on and as the region became rife with antisemitic ideas - things got worse and worse. As we moved into the middle of the 20th century it was a really bad time for Jews in the Middle East and Europe. Antisemism was almost global. Hitler had spread his brand of antisemitism into the middle east and spent a lot of effort ensuring the media and so on what inundated with Jew hate.

The view of Jews as greedy, devious, and bent on world domination became bound up with the Arab critique of Zionism - as well as the Nazi ideas too. There were pogrums across the region over this time - Libya, Syria, Iraq and more as well as the crazy shit going on in Europe so for Jews, the concept of zionism went from ridiculous fantasy to "hmmm, maybe this is not a bad idea". And as their dreams of self determination and having a homeland where they could live with equal rights was a rosy thing for them, for the Arab world, the conspiratorial notion of the Jews as plotting to take over the world quickly developed.

Then we descended into WWII and in a lot of ways the Arab world became allies of the Axis powers because they hated Britain and their imperialist control over the middle east. They already, this early, hated liberal ideas like democracy or human rights. It was completely at odds with their conservative religious beliefs such as attitudes to women and so on so this all just built and built.

I think what also went on is that there is a kind of pissing contest element to traditional Islam that isn't "live and let live". It is far more "there is only one true religion" and this concept of basically killing anyone who wasn't a Muslim was a part of that, and when they saw the reality that Jews were being "given" their own country in a region Arabs believed to belong solely to Muslims and the "one true" religion, they were very angry about it and still are.

Hence a lot of effort is put into wiping them off the planet rather than just getting along. It runs contrary to the entire world view of traditional, theocratic Islamic rule. It raises a terror that power might be lost if women or young people become indoctrinated by the west and start thinking crazy shit like "I'd quite like to vote in an election please", so it's been aggressively fought. When Israel came into existence, it was to the complete rage of some Arab leaders who wanted no "non Islamic" country in the region and so they fought very hard to stop it.

This is a blow also to the toxic masculinity so inherent in religious extremists who believe women, Jews, Christians are "beneath" them. How fucking dare a woman talk back? How fucking dare a CHRISTIAN give OUR LAND to these filthy Jews? They have to account for their losses to a supposedly inferior people so they depict the Jews as weak protégées of a mightier power—the United States—a theme that can be heard now commonly from groups like the Taliban or Isis.

Now, of course, a lot of this definitely doesn't apply to ALL Muslims, of course it does not. But it applies I think quite generally to a lot of the more traditional and nationalist ones in the region. And for those more liberal / generous in nature it doesn't matter all that much for two reasons.

Firstly, Arab countries passed laws that discriminate not against Israelis or Zionists but against all Jews, simply for being Jews. That is more or less the situation across the middle east, so being liberal doesn't really come into it as much as the practical reality they have diminished status.

Secondly, while in Western countries, overt bigotry is scolded, ignored, or kept out of politics - in mainstream Arab culture extreme antisemitic ideas are openly promoted through schools, newspapers, television, popular culture, and official ideology. It’s hardly even controversial and is basically just treated as completely normal.

So here to are with I suppose, the perfect recipe for Jew hate. It has so many dimensions to it, but this is essentially why - IMHO - groups like Hamas care absolutely nothing for settling in to peace and finding security and prosperity for their people. Because this battle is about supremacy over liberalism and an invasion to a middle eastern region they want to entirely dominate politically, religiousness and culturally. They can, perhaps, accept in liberal countries that other religions quietly practice their faith - but the idea of a sovereign, recognised Jewish state is abhorrent to many groups in the area.

Also, and interesting point which I won't go into much because I have droned on long enough - is that a vast amount of Arabs are very prejudice against Palestinians! They often work with them against the common enemy of Jews, but there is massive prejudice against them.

Because many of them are not originally Palestinians at all. They are immigrants who came to Israel from all over the Arab world (particularly during the British Mandate) in order to find employment in the cities and on the farms the Jews had built. Irony huh!

These immigrants still have names designating where they originally come from. Like the Masti are Egyptian Palestinians or the Tzurani are from Lebanon), and to cut a very long story short there is jealousy going on. Those Arabs from poorer countries like Syria are pissed off that aid agencies provide them with food, medical care yada yada while their people starve. They see it as preferential treatment.

Hence weird stuff happened which doesn't add up entirely to the Arab world supporting Palestine - like Jordan annexing the west bank for 20 years. Or the fact that from the end of the 1948 Israeli War although the politics in the Arab world began to center on eliminating Israel, the Arab “refugees” were kept in camps, with explicit instructions from the Arab League that they be kept there and not absorbed into other Arab countries.

It was felt (and the full history is complicated) that a lot of Palestinian Arabs were getting rich off the refugee thing - for example selling food, medical supplies or creating "cities" and so on and it created a lot of bad blood. Likewise with certain leaders like Arafat getting very rich off international support and donations and this pissed a lot of people off. they have had simply billions donated - money most of these places will never see.

There is also beef between Arab nations with Iran - and at one point with Iraq. Some want a more chill life - to prosper, trade and have peace and others are more keen on war and perpetual bickering. It's a commonly held belief in the Arab world that the Palestinian leaderships don't want a "state of their own" because if that ever happens the gravy train of vast donations would disappear and they'd have to lose their palaces pretty sharpish. Of course while many citizens live in poverty in Palestinian territory, their leaders are extremely rich and live in luxury.

Also worth noting a bit of internal bickering over the fact that 20% of the Palestinian Arabs enjoy life in the only democracy in the Middle East, while the Arab countries sacrifice their soldiers’ blood to liberate “Palestine.” So some feel like they put life and limb at risk in wars for people who were basically on the side of the so called oppressor and wanted to stay living their liberal lives. On top of the worst kept secret in the region which is that Palestinian Arabs have been selling land to Jews for at least a century, profiting immensely from the deals, and then wailing to their Arab brethren to come and free “Palestine” from the “Zionist occupation.”

It's a bit convoluted but not a clear cut case of Arabs vs Jews. More a split of old fashioned antisemitism with modern political rivalry!

Really interesting post, thanks.

I knew that Palestinians were discriminated against by other Muslims, but had never understood why. Interesting to find out - makes sense.

ketchup07070 · 09/10/2023 13:15

I saw the media outlets in Gaza have been bombed, so there will be no coverage of what's going on there. Does anyone know what is going on in the west Bank? It's quite concerning, as tensions are high already there.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 13:15

@Truthisbetterthanlies

They also (TRIGGER WARNING) raped teenage girls in front of the bodies of their murdered friends and then executed them. They murdered a grandmother in her 80s in her apartment while videoing it and posted it onto her Facebook page so her grandaughter could find it there. They spat on the mangled, naked corpse of a raped tourist and videoed it and showed off about it

These are the actions you think are morally equivalent to bombing a building you've already told the residents to leave well in advance

One thing that has saddened me so much today was reading left wing people on Twitter draw these false equivalences.

For example, that young girl, who was on holiday and had nothing at all to do with this conflict was murdered, paraded around like a corpse trophy and a passer by took time to lean in and actually spit on her body.

When I raised this in a left wing group this morning they said "ah, but there was an IDF soldier pissing on a Palestinians body".

So are grim as it is to urinate on any dead body, how can they drawn an equivalence between spitting on the innocent body of that poor young girl and pissing on the body of the terrorist that murdered her?

I have come away from this feeling like anti-israel or perhaps outright antisemitic prejudice is so strong, these people are now defending the murderer over their victim. They are so blinded by irrational hatred for this tiny country who - while not perfect - is certainly nowhere near as bad as a host of other countries - that they are "both sides" ing acts of demented brutality to innocent people.

I really despair of it.

Livinginanotherworld · 09/10/2023 13:16

TruckDiver · 09/10/2023 12:09

yet this thread has had numerous posters claiming that Jews in Israel do indeed "deserve a painful and horrible death"

Really? Who's said that?

Can you reference that in actual words as I certainly haven’t seen it.

BlurredEdges · 09/10/2023 13:17

DuvetsAndDreams · 09/10/2023 08:46

And I am sorry for you and everyone who this is affecting so close to home. It’s easy for people like me to post on threads like these, but when you have a direct link, then it must be heartbreaking and terrifying.

I have messaged all my Jewish friends today. I am Muslim but am lucky enough to have friends from all over and I like to think we understand and support each other at these times.

I feel most for friends with kids in the Israeli army right now. I could cry for them. Parents worry about their kids, whatever their nationality.

thank you, the world needs more people like you,, x

tomorrowalready · 09/10/2023 13:22

I also thank Lemonyticket for going to the trouble to give some historical context to an intractable conflict.

KimberleyClark · 09/10/2023 13:23

When I raised this in a left wing group this morning they said "ah, but there was an IDF soldier pissing on a Palestinians body".

So are grim as it is to urinate on any dead body, how can they drawn an equivalence between spitting on the innocent body of that poor young girl and pissing on the body of the terrorist that murdered her?

Do you have evidence that the Palestinian being urinated on was indeed the murderer of that young girl?

ketchup07070 · 09/10/2023 13:26

@LemonyTicket It's a level of hatred hard to understand. Yes, terrible whatever happened to the young girl. Actually pissing on any corpse is beyond my comprehension - it's primitive and alien to me, but as you say there would be immense hatred and a sense of injustice about it. I was also very shocked by the shooting of the American Palestinian Christian journalist, and the footage of mourners being beaten as they carried her coffin. There is something really volatile and strange going on in that whole area and I wish people would just find some politicians who actively want peace above all else.

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